Latvia in WW2

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Legionars
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Latvia in WW2

Post by Legionars » 17 Jul 2006 10:24

Hello this is resume about latvains in WWII. I'm gona post in detail all important thigs but first this.

In that time Latvia was therd in well being in world. Latvia was ruled by peacfull dictator Kārlis Ulmanis. Latvians had peace pact with soviets and Ulmanis belived them. Before 1939 in Latvia was set about 30 000 men. But our army was able to figth with 120 000 soldiers + voluntary. Submarines, tanks, air force.

When Ulmanis find out about Molotov- Ribentrop pact he still belived in soviets. Even when in nigth before occupation some east border- guards were killed and some with families captured prezident still did nothing.
When russians came in Baltic Ulmanis gave order not to resist. In his famous speach in Latvian radio he said „...I stay in my place you stay in yours!!!” that was the his last words.
In 1941 Russians deportaed 15424 people to Siberia. When germans came in Latvia, latvians were happy how are exempt from reds. So when germans needed soldiers to fight with soviets from latvain voluntary was made 15 and 19 division.
Latvians were not intrested in killing jews they were interested in killing russians.
Ofcourese there were exemples who killed jews. Viktors Arajs and Arajs crew was bloody jew killers in easteurope. In his crew was about 300 men. Moustly relatives from deportated. So latvians were in bouth sides of front. Brother vs. brother.

When russians came back the Kurzemes fortress was still standing untill end of war. Latvian legionary was not beaten. In 1945 was another wave of deportation when to Siberia was send about 50 000 people.

Latvain resistance figth till end 1956. Latvia in WWII lost not just freedom for 50 years but about ¼ from population.



P.S.Hope you understand my English.

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Alex Yeliseenko
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Post by Alex Yeliseenko » 17 Jul 2006 11:33

Psychological complexes...

Each Latvian, coming on this forum writes such posts... The Text about identical.

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Post by Alex Yeliseenko » 17 Jul 2006 15:37

In 1941 Russians deportaed 15424 people to Siberia.
Under documents NKVD from Latvia in 1941 it has been arrested 4550 person, and it is deported 9119 person. Have been deported: security guards of prisons, gendarmes, police. From Latvia 543 dangerous criminals and 281 prostitute have been moved. They should be left? They would become present fighters Waffen SS? The National structure deported was the following: Russian of 26 %, Latvians of 24 %, Jews of 20 %. Actually deportation has allowed to rescue lives of many Latvian Jews.

Within " independent European Latvia " in 1941-1944 in territory of Latvia 313798 civilians, 330 thousand Soviet military captured (not less than 30 thousand from them were Latvians on a nationality), about 85 thousand Jews have been killed . To Germany it has been stolen 280 thousand person. The Most part of these people was lost on a construction of strengthenings in East Prussia.


Best regards from Siberia, Krasnoyarsk

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Post by Legionars » 18 Jul 2006 19:06

USSR started all ocupated population deportation after annexation until 1950. First and bigest deportations started in 1941 July. Moustly on July 14.
From NKVD documents in that night:
1) Shustin Semjon allowed 6.636 person deportation.
2) Cinis Janis - 2.479
3) Krivicki Zinovij /Zjama/ - 1.915
4) Brezgin Aleksandr - 1.138
And Vēver, Mende, Barkovski, Jenukidze, Lagovski, Latkovski, Martirosov, Sproģis all allowed 2000 people deportation.

In second wave year 1949:
Novik Alfon - 41.544
Peshehonov Fotij, Vēvers Jānis, Zujāns, Shustins, Kovaļchuks, Poļikarpovs, Ļakishevs, Mishutins, Jemeļjanovs, Kozins, Krasheņņikovs were responsible.

These are just some names and nummbers from NKVD files who can be increased by meny others.
These men were rewarded by Red Flag medal and 1. grade WW2 medals for „successful special governmental mission accompilshing”!!!!!!


In year 1941 depotrted population shareout: age and gender
  • Age_____________ Men____ Men___ Women____ Women_____
    Elder than 80______ 16____ 0,1%_____ 24_____ 0,2%___
    70 - 80 years old___ 123___ 0,9%_____ 133_____ 0,9%___
    60 - 70 years old___ 448____ 3,1%____ 345_____ 2,4%___
    50 - 60 years old___ 933____ 6,5%____ 704_____ 4,9%___
    40 - 50 years old___ 1447___ 10,1%___ 1256_____ 8,8%___
    30 - 40 years old___ 1430___ 10,0%___ 1500_____ 10,5%___
    20 - 30 years old___ 493_____ 3,5%___ 812______ 5,7%___
    10 - 20 years old___ 1058____ 7,4%___ 1073_____ 7,5%___
    Under age of 10___ 1225___ 8,6%___ 1257___ 8,8%___
    Together_________ 7173___ 50,2%__ 7104___ 49,8%___
In year 1949 deport population in nummber record biger is proportion - 58,1% were women. Together were deported 2,35% from all Latvian women and 2,18% from all men.


Alex Yeliseenko – Did you know how thous "dangerous criminals" were: writters, politicans, officers, poets and others artists also farmers, the wealthy people and antisoviets. Russians were not deported they were send into Latvia not out.

What was childern under age of 10? Dangerous criminals or prostitute? What was my grandfather???
Stop talking about you have no idea!!!


Brad Hunter - Great job!!!

P.S.
Surprisingly low motorization!

Latvians didn't care!!! In 1919 we won united German-Russian 51 000 men large well trained and armored army against 13 000 thousands latvian students under age of 18, fire men, teachers, policemen, farmers and some soldiers who were not good equipped and not well trained!!!

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Post by Alex Yeliseenko » 18 Jul 2006 19:43

USSR started all ocupated population deportation after annexation until 1950. First and bigest deportations started in 1941 July. Moustly on July 14.
From NKVD documents in that night:
1) Shustin Semjon allowed 6.636 person deportation.
2) Cinis Janis - 2.479
3) Krivicki Zinovij /Zjama/ - 1.915
4) Brezgin Aleksandr - 1.138
And Vēver, Mende, Barkovski, Jenukidze, Lagovski, Latkovski, Martirosov, Sproģis all allowed 2000 people deportation.

In second wave year 1949:
Novik Alfon - 41.544
Peshehonov Fotij, Vēvers Jānis, Zujāns, Shustins, Kovaļchuks, Poļikarpovs, Ļakishevs, Mishutins, Jemeļjanovs, Kozins, Krasheņņikovs were responsible.

These are just some names and nummbers from NKVD files who can be increased by meny others.
These men were rewarded by Red Flag medal and 1. grade WW2 medals for „successful special governmental mission accompilshing”!!!!!!


In year 1941 depotrted population shareout: age and gender
  • Age_____________ Men____ Men___ Women____ Women_____
    Elder than 80______ 16____ 0,1%_____ 24_____ 0,2%___
    70 - 80 years old___ 123___ 0,9%_____ 133_____ 0,9%___
    60 - 70 years old___ 448____ 3,1%____ 345_____ 2,4%___
    50 - 60 years old___ 933____ 6,5%____ 704_____ 4,9%___
    40 - 50 years old___ 1447___ 10,1%___ 1256_____ 8,8%___
    30 - 40 years old___ 1430___ 10,0%___ 1500_____ 10,5%___
    20 - 30 years old___ 493_____ 3,5%___ 812______ 5,7%___
    10 - 20 years old___ 1058____ 7,4%___ 1073_____ 7,5%___
    Under age of 10___ 1225___ 8,6%___ 1257___ 8,8%___
    Together_________ 7173___ 50,2%__ 7104___ 49,8%___
In year 1949 deport population in nummber record biger is proportion - 58,1% were women. Together were deported 2,35% from all Latvian women and 2,18% from all men.


Alex Yeliseenko – Did you know how thous "dangerous criminals" were: writters, politicans, officers, poets and others artists also farmers, the wealthy people and antisoviets. Russians were not deported they were send into Latvia not out.

What was childern under age of 10? Dangerous criminals or prostitute? What was my grandfather???
Stop talking about you have no idea!!!


Brad Hunter - Great job!!!

P.S.
Surprisingly low motorization!

Latvians didn't care!!! In 1919 we won united German-Russian 51 000 men large well trained and armored army against 13 000 thousands latvian students under age of 18, fire men, teachers, policemen, farmers and some soldiers who were not good equipped and not well trained!!![/quote]


It is not necessary to confuse "are deported" and "evacuated"!

On the night of June, 14th from Latvia it has been taken out 9119 person. It - archive NKVD.

Your historians simply use "convenient" figures, ignoring others, not suitable for official ideology of Latvia.

Dangerous criminals - are criminals-recidivists who have been taken out from the Latvian prisons. They are murderers and tyrants, robbers. They have been deported from Latvia.

Writers, politicians, officials - among them there were many Jews. Evacuation has rescueed it a life.

Your grandfather has been taken out together with parents? In what territory of Siberia? It is possible to learn on archives where it was and whether there was it evacuated or deported.

It is less than hysterics, it is more than facts.

Best regards from Siberia, Krasnoyarsk.

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Post by michael mills » 20 Jul 2006 02:05

Latvians were not intrested in killing jews they were interested in killing russians.
The above is not entirely true.

What is true is that large numbers of ethnic Latvians, in particular the more nationalistically minded, which included the Latvian intelligentsia, students, and most of the educated middle and upper classes, wanted to take revenge on those parts of the latvian population that had been most prominent in collaborating with the Soviet occupiers of the country from June 1940 until the German invasion.

There was a wide-spread feeling that the Jewish minority as a group had collaborated enthusiastically with the Soviet occupation. That was not entirely true, since many of the wealthy Jews of Latvia had been considered "class enemies" by the Soviet occupiers, and had suffered repression along with upper and middle-class ethnic Latvians. However, it is true that the Jews of Latvia had preferred Soviet occupation to German occupation, for obvious reasons, and regarded the outcome of the German-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact of 23 August 1939, and the resulting Soviet occupation in June 1940 as having saved them both from coming under German rule and from the increasing anti-Jewish feeling within Latvia.

Furthermore, there was a considerable element among the Jewish population, especially among the youth, that was enthusiastically pro-Communist, and had adopted a high profile in welcoming the Soviet forces when they entered Latvia in June 1940.

Thus, when the Soviet occupiers fled from Latvia in the face of the German advance, it was inevitable that the Latvian desire for revenge for the persecution they had suffered for one year would turn against the Jews as the most visible and available representative of the former Soviet persecutors.

Latvians need to accept the fact that in June 1941, there was wide-spread anti-Jewish feeling among the ethnic Latvian population, and that considerable numbers of ethnic Latvians were ready, willing and able to start rounding up Jews and even killing them in the few days between the precipitate Soviet retreat and the establishment of the German occupation administration. By the same token, other people need to avoid blaming the Latvians, and to take full account of the reasons why so many Latvians acted as they did at the time, namely their terrible experience of a brutally oppressive Soviet occupation.
Ofcourese there were exemples who killed jews. Viktors Arajs and Arajs crew was bloody jew killers in easteurope. In his crew was about 300 men. Moustly relatives from deportated. So latvians were in bouth sides of front. Brother vs. brother.
After the war, the Soviet Government disparaged those Latvians who had collaborated with Germany as "criminal elements". However, the men of the Arajs Kommando and similar collaborationist units were overwhelmingly members of the educated middle class, mainly university students and members of nationalist student organisations. Arajs himself was a member of the intelligentsia.

Quite a few of the members of the collaborationist units were men who had joined the underground resistance against the Soviet occupation, and had gone into hiding, being hunted by the NKVD. These were the so-called "forest people", who took refuge in the countryside and engaged in sabotage against the Soviet forces. After the Soviet retreat, they came out of hiding and formed militia groups that began hunting down Soviet collaborators who had not fled; many of the collaborators caught and summarily executed by those militias were Jews, but not all of them. After the arrival of the Germans, those militias were taken under German command and formed into police units.

Thus, the Arajs Kommando was by no means an unrepresentative group of criminal types, but consisted of men who were idealistic nationalists and representative of the feelings of a very large part of the Latvian population, particularly of the nationalist intelligentsia.

Furthermore, there was no single collaborationist Latvian unit that specialised in killing Jews. The Arajs Kommando killed some tens of thousands of Jews in the late summer and autumn of 1941, acting under German command, particularly in the smaller towns and rural areas, but from early 1942 onward it was deployed on anti-partisan operations, primarily in the area around Leningrad.

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Post by michael mills » 20 Jul 2006 02:19

Alex Yeliseenko wrote:
It is not necessary to confuse "are deported" and "evacuated"!
The above is historically correct.

In analysing the removal of some thousands of persons from Latvia into the Soviet interior in the week before the German invasion, it is necessary to distinguish clearly between:

1. Evacuation of parts of the Latvian population that had worked in the Soviet administration or otherwise collaborated with it, and would be in extreme danger if they fell into the hands of the Germans who were about to invade. It is probable that most of the Jews removed from Latvia at that time fell into this category, although so far as I know no precise study has been made on that point.

2. Deportation of elements of the population considered to be anti-Soviet and future collaborators with the impending German invasion. Most of the deportees were members of the educated ethnic Latvian upper and middle classes, particularly those who were nationalistic or had formed part of the pre-Soviet Latvian administration. Some Jews considered to be anti-Soviet, eg Zionist or Bundist activists, or the wealthier businessmen, were deported in this category.

It needs to be remembered that the evacuations and deportations of mid-June 1941 were a reaction to the impending German invasion, which the Soviet authorities knew was inevitable (even the date was known). The Soviets followed the twofold aim of rescuing their own people, and of destroying in advance any population elements that might be particularly pro-German.

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Post by henryk » 20 Jul 2006 20:39

Michael Mills said:
It needs to be remembered that the evacuations and deportations of /mid-June 1941 were a reaction to the impending German invasion, which the Soviet authorities knew was inevitable ( even the date was known).
Please clarify your time line and provide references.
The Germans invaded USSR occupied Poland on June 22, 1941. I understand this this was a complete surprise. Thus all removals of Latvians prior to this date surely were deportations. Sometime after this date, deportations and evacuations.
The "known" date of the invasion of USSR occupied Latvia was when? (date post 22 June).

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Post by Penn44 » 21 Jul 2006 01:07

michael mills wrote: Latvians need to accept the fact that in June 1941, there was wide-spread anti-Jewish feeling among the ethnic Latvian population, and that considerable numbers of ethnic Latvians were ready, willing and able to start rounding up Jews and even killing them in the few days between the precipitate Soviet retreat and the establishment of the German occupation administration. By the same token, other people need to avoid blaming the Latvians, and to take full account of the reasons why so many Latvians acted as they did at the time, namely their terrible experience of a brutally oppressive Soviet occupation.
In this and past postings you have repeatedly attempted to rationalize the 1941 attacks of Balts, Ukrainians, etc. against Jews as spontaneous, indigenous response of ethnic majority groups (ethnic Latvians, Ukrainians, etc.) against minority Jews whom the majority groups had identified as collaborationists with Soviet occupation/oppression. In making your claim, you invariably fail to comment on the impact, if any, of historic (pre-existing) anti-Semitism within the area. This region had witnessed widespread, violent anti-Semitic outrages long before the Soviets appeared. You need to adequately address this issue otherwise your claim as presented is extremely shallow, weak, and lacks full explanative value.

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Post by michael mills » 21 Jul 2006 02:22

In making your claim, you invariably fail to comment on the impact, if any, of historic (pre-existing) anti-Semitism within the area. This region had witnessed widespread, violent anti-Semitic outrages long before the Soviets appeared. You need to adequately address this issue otherwise your claim as presented is extremely shallow, weak, and lacks full explanative value.
In fact, Latvia had remained largely unaffected by the anti-Jewish violence that had occurred sporadically in other parts of the Russian Empire before the outbreak of the First World War, eg in 1881, 1903 or 1905-06.

Even in 1919, when anti-Jewish violence in Ukraine reached proportions far greater than previously experienced in the Russian Empire (with tens of thousands killed), in the context of the Bolshevik invasion and crushing of Ukrainian independence, there were no similar outbreaks in Latvia, even though the newly-independent Latvian state had to fight for its life against Bolshevik attempts to subdue it. Perhaps it was because Latvia was successfully able to assert its independence in 1919-20 that there was no discernible anti-Jewish feeling at the time.

Thus, the readiness of Latvian nationalists to engage in anti-Jewish violence as soon as Soviet control was withdrawn is quite clearly related to the experience of one year of extremely oppressive and tyrannical Soviet domination from June 1940 to June 1941.

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Post by Penn44 » 21 Jul 2006 05:14

michael mills wrote: Thus, the readiness of Latvian nationalists to engage in anti-Jewish violence as soon as Soviet control was withdrawn is quite clearly related to the experience of one year of extremely oppressive and tyrannical Soviet domination from June 1940 to June 1941.
The absence of extensive anti-Semitic violence in Latvia prior to 1940-41, if true, does not mean there was an absense of anti-Semitism. Compared to Eastern European countries, there was relatively little anti-Semitic violence in Germany in the decades prior to the Third Reich. As is already known, the Nazis, however, were able to take anti-Semitism violence to ever new historic heights.

You still have not offered any definitive evidence to prove that pre-existing anti-Semitism in Latvia prior to Soviet occupation was not a factor in the Latvian Nationalist actions against Jews in 1941 other than provide your opinion.

Your argument is still weak.

If there was relatively little anti-Semitism in Latvia prior to 1940-41, can you offer any explanation why Latvia was immune to it?

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Re: Latvia in WW2

Post by Sergey » 26 Jul 2006 10:16

Legionars wrote:Latvians were not intrested in killing jews they were interested in killing russians.
My parents were born and lived in Siberian village of Polozovo in Tomsk region. There was a Latvian settlement near the village. Attitude of Russian villagers to the Latvians was the best possible and they were helped. Moreover the village had mixed Russian/Ukrainian/Polish population (I myself is at 1/4 Polish). So it was rather attitude of a normal people to another people. Blame Stalin for political oppressions, not ordinary Russians.

PS. I would be surprised if any Latvian would complain about attitude of local population in Siberia to them.

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Re: Latvia in WW2

Post by Alex Yeliseenko » 26 Jul 2006 14:38

Sergey wrote:
Legionars wrote:Latvians were not intrested in killing jews they were interested in killing russians.
My parents were born and lived in Siberian village of Polozovo in Tomsk region. There was a Latvian settlement near the village. Attitude of Russian villagers to the Latvians was the best possible and they were helped. Moreover the village had mixed Russian/Ukrainian/Polish population (I myself is at 1/4 Polish). So it was rather attitude of a normal people to another people. Blame Stalin for political oppressions, not ordinary Russians.

PS. I would be surprised if any Latvian would complain about attitude of local population in Siberia to them.
It only a hysterics. Some of Latvia posted here only to write such bosh. But they do not result any source. Any document of archive. When they are not supported by participants of a forum - they leave.

I wrote here, that many evacuated of Latvia were Jews. Some unaware people do not wish to admit this fact.

Best regards!

Alex.

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Post by michael mills » 27 Jul 2006 04:10

I wrote here, that many evacuated of Latvia were Jews. Some unaware people do not wish to admit this fact.
I have already addressed that issue.

As I stated, the Jews evacuated were those who had collaborated with the Soviet occupation, and were being moved to safety one week before the expected German invasion, along with Soviet officials and collaborators of other ethnicities.

Other Jews were deported as "anti-Soviet", eg businessmen, members of Zionist and Bundist parties. These persons were arrested and deported to prison camps in the Soviet interior, along with Latvian nationalists who had also been rounded up.

As stated previously, the important issue is not to distinguish between the ethnic background of the persons transported from Latvia, but between those considered pro-Soviet, who were evacuated in order to save them from the impending German invasion, and those considered anti-Soviet, who were deported in order to punish them and prevent them from fiture collaboration with the Germans.

Ethnic Latvians and ethnic Jews were found in both classes of persons transported out of Latvia, although it is most likely that there were proportionately more ethnic Latvians among those deported as 'anti-Soviet", and proportionately more ethnic Jews among those evacuated with pro-Soviet elements.

The distinction between the two classes of transportees has often been obfuscated. The fact that a relatively large number of Jews was transported does not negate the reality of Soviet persecution of anti-Soviet Latvian nationalists.

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Post by Marcus » 29 Jul 2006 16:10

A number of posts were split off into a new thread entitled Latvia in 1919.

/Marcus

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