Latvia in 1919

Musashi · Post by **Musashi** » 26 Jul 2006 15:01

Legionars wrote:Latvians didn't care!!! In 1919 we won united German-Russian 51 000 men large well trained and armored army against 13 000 thousands latvian students under age of 18, fire men, teachers, policemen, farmers and some soldiers who were not good equipped and not well trained!!!

You forgot about Polish help. For example Polish army liberated Daugavpils from the Red Army and gave it to Latvians.

Alex Yeliseenko · Post by **Alex Yeliseenko** » 26 Jul 2006 15:27

Musashi wrote:
Legionars wrote:Latvians didn't care!!! In 1919 we won united German-Russian 51 000 men large well trained and armored army against 13 000 thousands latvian students under age of 18, fire men, teachers, policemen, farmers and some soldiers who were not good equipped and not well trained!!!
You forgot about Polish help. For example Polish army liberated Daugavpils from the Red Army and gave it to Latvians.

And Russian help! If not support of Russian White Army - up to last soldier battled in Baltic against Red army of Latvia, any independent Latvia would not be. There would be communistic Latvia - the Latvian peaples republic.

Regards

Reigo · Post by **Reigo** » 28 Jul 2006 18:24

Alex Yeliseenko wrote:

And Russian help! If not support of Russian White Army - up to last soldier battled in Baltic against Red army of Latvia, any independent Latvia would not be. There would be communistic Latvia - the Latvian peaples republic.

I understand that according to you some kind of Russian White Army fought in the Baltics against the Red Army of Latvia which resulted the end of Soviet rule in Latvia.

I have special interest in the events of 1918-1920 in Baltics and in the Russian Civil War generally. Thus far I don't know any such Russian "army" which fought against the "Red Army of Latvia" (I presume you mean the Soviet Latvian Army - as it was officially called from January till June 1919). Indeed in Latvia there fought the Russian Prince Lieven Detachment but only about a battalion of this detachment participated in fight against the Reds in Latvia and this didn't have such a great impact on the events. If you mean the Independent Pskov Volunteer Corps of the Northern Army (the later North-Western Army) then I must point out that the elements of this army had combat contact with the Soviet Latvian Army only in January 1919 in Southern-Estonia and only for a short time (less than two weeks). This contact had no important results. The main combat force against the Soviet Latvian Army were the Estonian Army and the German military forces.

So in conclusion your claim is false.

Alex Yeliseenko · Post by **Alex Yeliseenko** » 29 Jul 2006 14:25

Reigo wrote:Alex Yeliseenko wrote:
And Russian help! If not support of Russian White Army - up to last soldier battled in Baltic against Red army of Latvia, any independent Latvia would not be. There would be communistic Latvia - the Latvian peaples republic.
I understand that according to you some kind of Russian White Army fought in the Baltics against the Red Army of Latvia which resulted the end of Soviet rule in Latvia.

I have special interest in the events of 1918-1920 in Baltics and in the Russian Civil War generally. Thus far I don't know any such Russian "army" which fought against the "Red Army of Latvia" (I presume you mean the Soviet Latvian Army - as it was officially called from January till June 1919). Indeed in Latvia there fought the Russian Prince Lieven Detachment but only about a battalion of this detachment participated in fight against the Reds in Latvia and this didn't have such a great impact on the events. If you mean the Independent Pskov Volunteer Corps of the Northern Army (the later North-Western Army) then I must point out that the elements of this army had combat contact with the Soviet Latvian Army only in January 1919 in Southern-Estonia and only for a short time (less than two weeks). This contact had no important results. The main combat force against the Soviet Latvian Army were the Estonian Army and the German military forces.

Sometimes think before to accuse other people of false. It can return a boomerang.

If you think, that someone has no information on position in Baltic in 1918-1920 you are mistaken.

My citation was idle time, but it does not mean, that in it there was no truth.

I shall remind, that the structure VI reserve corps included not only parts from Baltic Germans and the Latvian nationalists, but also thousand Russian from White guards.

And now answer a question - who is guilty in war between Latvians and Estonians?

So in conclusion your claim is false.

Reigo · Post by **Reigo** » 29 Jul 2006 14:47

Alex Yeliseenko wrote:

Sometimes think before to accuse other people of false. It can return a boomerang.

If you think, that someone has no information on position in Baltic in 1918-1920 you are mistaken.

My citation was idle time, but it does not mean, that in it there was no truth.

May I describe your response using your own words: "It only a hysterics." If you would have read my post, then you would have noted that I perfectly understood that in your post there is some truth (the fact that there was a White Russian unit in Latvia).

Alex Yeliseenko wrote:

I shall remind, that the structure VI reserve corps included not only parts from Baltic Germans and the Latvian nationalists, but also thousand Russian from White guards.

At first I will remind you, what you claimed in your original post: "If not support of Russian White Army - up to last soldier battled in Baltic against Red army of Latvia, any independent Latvia would not be. There would be communistic Latvia - the Latvian peaples republic."

Now I shall repeat: in 1919 in the fight in Latvia against Red Army only about a battalion size Russian unit - the Prince Lieven Detachment - participated. The impact of this battalion to the events in Latvia was too small to determine the fate of Soviet Latvia.

Indeed after the capture of Riga in May 1919 the detachment was reinforced and reformed. After that it included three battalions - about 3000 men. But after the capture of Riga the detachment had no serious battles against the Red Army in Latvia but was transfered to North-Western Russia where it was subordinated to the White North-Western Army.

And now answer a question - who is guilty in war between Latvians and Estonians?

Next time you want somebody to answer your questions (no matter if irrevelant to the topic or not), use the word "please" in your apply.

So again in conclusion: your claim was false.

Alex Yeliseenko · Post by **Alex Yeliseenko** » 29 Jul 2006 15:09

Reigo wrote:Alex Yeliseenko wrote:

Sometimes think before to accuse other people of false. It can return a boomerang.

If you think, that someone has no information on position in Baltic in 1918-1920 you are mistaken.

My citation was idle time, but it does not mean, that in it there was no truth.
May I describe your response using your own words: "It only a hysterics." If you would have read my post, then you would have noted that I perfectly understood that in your post there is some truth (the fact that there was a White Russian unit in Latvia).

Alex Yeliseenko wrote:
I shall remind, that the structure VI reserve corps included not only parts from Baltic Germans and the Latvian nationalists, but also thousand Russian from White guards.
At first I will remind you, what you claimed in your original post: "If not support of Russian White Army - up to last soldier battled in Baltic against Red army of Latvia, any independent Latvia would not be. There would be communistic Latvia - the Latvian peaples republic."

Now I shall repeat: in 1919 in the fight in Latvia against Red Army only about a battalion size Russian unit - the Prince Lieven Detachment - participated. The impact of this battalion to the events in Latvia was too small to determine the fate of Soviet Latvia.

Indeed after the capture of Riga in May 1919 the detachment was reinforced and reformed. After that it included three battalions - about 3000 men. But after the capture of Riga the detachment had no serious battles against the Red Army in Latvia but was transfered to North-Western Russia where it was subordinated to the White North-Western Army.

And now answer a question - who is guilty in war between Latvians and Estonians?
Next time you want somebody to answer your questions (no matter if irrevelant to the topic or not), use the word "please" in your apply.

So again in conclusion: your claim was false.

I shall not use fine skirmishes.

In March, 1919 in corps was not less than 7 thousand Russian (it from the book History Estonian SSR, 1952, also Russian white movement on fragments of Empire in Baltic, 1993). Commanders from ethnic Germans tested because of it problems of a language barrier. Besides some tens Russian were a part and Baltic Landsver.

I am familiar with rules of politeness. But you in the post have preferred to do without them.

Reigo · Post by **Reigo** » 29 Jul 2006 15:30

Sorry, but that is simply not good enough!

In March, 1919 in corps was not less than 7 thousand Russian (it from the book History Estonian SSR, 1952,

Great: stalinist history books as a source! But OK, never mind. Can the forumites also have a page number so for example I can check your claim? Actually I am quite sure that this number is concerning the White Russian Northern Corps under the Estonian command and even then it is inflated (the real number should be about 5000). Or the other possibilty is that the number 7000 is for the Bermondt-Avalov troops, but I am sure that you know that these troops acted in Latvia in autumn 1919 and not for independent Latvia but battled against it. And of course there is the possibilty that you simply lie: I consider this the most believable option.

also Russian white movement on fragments of Empire in Baltic, 1993).

I am sure that this book has also a title in Russian? Give to the forumites also a page number. I will definitely check.

By the way, maybe you would want to check this source (the memoirs of the commander of the Russian detachment in Latvia - Prince Lieven): Св. княз Ливень. Основание отряда.//Памятка Ливенца. 1919–1929. Рига, 1929. Also published in: Белая борьба на Северо-Западе России. Москва, 2003. From there you should see that the claim about 7000 Russians in Latvia in March 1919 is a fantasy.

Reigo · Post by **Reigo** » 29 Jul 2006 15:41

Even one of the leading reserachers of the White movement in Russia S. Volkov seem to know nothing about 7000 Russians in March 1919: the book Трагедия русского офицерства (Moscow, 1993):

http://militera.lib.ru/research/volkov1/04.html

Отряд, формировавшийся св.кн.А.П.Ливеном из русских офицеров, сначала был известен как «Либавская добровольческая группа»{789}, или «Либавский добровольческий стрелковый отряд». Срок службы добровольцев обуславливался сроком, введенным в Балтийском ландесвере, т.е. первоначально по 1 июля, затем по 1 октября 1919 г. Для офицеров служба была по самому своему смыслу бессрочная. Оклад для рядового офицера составлял сначала 11, потом 18 марок{790}. Каждый доброволец из Германии должен был представить двух известных лиц в качестве поручителей{791}. В отряд вступила и часть офицерства Псковского корпуса, отрезанная при отступлении от него и попавшая в Либаву. Первоначально он насчитывал только 60 ч, почти все офицеры. Помощником кн. Ливена был полковник В.Ф.Рар{792}. 15 января формирование было закончено и по соглашению с Балтийским ландесвером отряд временно вошел в его состав; 31 января первая его рота в 65 шт. выступила на фронт. К 9 февраля в отряде насчитывалось около 100 чел., из которых более половины офицеры, штат был определен в 440{793}. В конце февраля в отряд вошла бывшая ранее в составе ландесвера рота капитана Дыдорова{794}. В начале марта Ливенский отряд насчитывал 250 ч.{795}, в дальнейшем он (эскадрон 100 чел., пулеметная команда — 125 и рота 250 шт.{796}) вместе с частями Латвийской армии и Балтийского ландесвера, состоявшего из остзейских немцев (в т.ч. офицеров русской армии) и немецких добровольцев сражался против красных войск в Курляндии, пополняясь за счет бывших пленных русских офицеров из Германии. К июню он насчитывал 3500 ч.: 3 полка (генерал-майор Верховский, подполковник Янович-Канеп), стрелковый дивизион (подполковник Казаков), артиллерия (кап. Андерсон), 2 броневика и авиационный отряд){797}. Тогда же вместе с отрядами полковников Бермонта (отряд имени графа Келлера) и Вырголича он вошел дивизией в Западный корпус Северной армии (командир кн. Ливен, заместитель полковник А.Беккер, начальники штаба полковники Бирих, Чайковский, ген. Янов){798}. Тогда же началось прибытие эшелонов из Польши, где записалось до 15 тыс. добровольцев, и из Германии. Летом 1919 г. Ливенский отряд перебазировался в Эстляндию и вошел в состав Северо-Западной армии как 5-я («Ливенская») дивизия (его 1–3-й полки стали, 17-м Либавским, 18-м Рижским и 19-м Полтавским){799}.

I made the text bold: it says: "In the beginning of March the Lieven Detachment counted 250 men".

Alex Yeliseenko · Post by **Alex Yeliseenko** » 29 Jul 2006 15:51

Reigo wrote:Sorry, but that is simply not good enough!

In March, 1919 in corps was not less than 7 thousand Russian (it from the book History Estonian SSR, 1952,

Great: stalinist history books as a source! But OK, never mind. Can the forumites also have a page number so for example I can check your claim? Actually I am quite sure that this number is concerning the White Russian Northern Corps under the Estonian command and even then it is inflated (the real number should be about 5000). Or the other possibilty is that the number 7000 is for the Bermondt-Avalov troops, but I am sure that you know that these troops acted in Latvia in autumn 1919 and not for independent Latvia but battled against it. And of course there is the possibilty that you simply lie: I consider this the most believable option.

also Russian white movement on fragments of Empire in Baltic, 1993).
I am sure that this book has also a title in Russian? Give to the forumites also a page number. I will definitely check.

By the way, maybe you would want to check this source (the memoirs of the commander of the Russian detachment in Latvia - Prince Lieven): Св. княз Ливень. Основание отряда.//Памятка Ливенца. 1919–1929. Рига, 1929. Also published in: Белая борьба на Северо-Западе России. Москва, 2003. From there you should see that the claim about 7000 Russians in Latvia in March 1919 is a fantasy.

Stalin books contain as much truths how many and applications for absence of the Holocaust in Baltic. But concerning figures it is very exact book. Page 214.

" On the party of bourgeoisie against people's power at this time has acted not less than 7 thousand Russian white guardsmen "...

Русское Белое движение на обломках Империи в Прибалтике, Томский государственный университет, 1993

Page 112. " 7 thousand Russian in March, 1919 participated in struggle against red only in Latvia and Latgalia "

Reigo · Post by **Reigo** » 29 Jul 2006 16:03

Stalin books contain as much truths how many and applications for absence of the Holocaust in Baltic.

I am sure this is something really witty but I don't bother to try to understand it.

I of course will check both the books. But anyway in the light of S. Volkov's study it should be clear now that the claims about 7000 is a fantasy. It is not supported by any serious researcher of the White movement.

Page 214.

" On the party of bourgeoisie against people's power at this time has acted not less than 7 thousand Russian white guardsmen "...

It is of course nice that you bothered to quote and all but this doesn't reveal when and where they acted. So it remains a mystery really why you decided to quote. Well don't bother to respond, it is false information anyway. But you personally can believe it, I don't care.

Page 112. " 7 thousand Russian in March, 1919 participated in struggle against red only in Latvia and Latgalia "

What can I say: again false information. Somebody made it up. Does the authors give a source? I hope it is not the History of the ESSR published in 1952.

David Thompson · Post by **David Thompson** » 29 Jul 2006 16:11

Everyone -- We have a rule of civility here. You can see it at:

H&WC Section Rules
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=53962

The first rule of the forum is: "No insults are tolerated (that includes serious national and religious insults)." Personal remarks in posts are discouraged, and personal insults are forbidden here.

There has been a lot of stimulating information exchanged on this forum, and some excellent discussions of controversial points. With few exceptions, the participants are thoughtful, serious people. If you find an argument is flawed, point out the flaws and the evidence to the contrary, and leave it at that. There is no need to resort to insults which do not prove your point. If you disagree with a contributor, please use your energy to show why his argument is mistaken. This will improve both the tone and quality of our discussions.
* * * * *
Nonconforming posts are subject to deletion without warning. Serious breaches of these rules are punishable by banning the poster.

Our readers come here for documented facts. Stick to posting them, and avoid personal comments.

michael mills · Post by **michael mills** » 30 Jul 2006 05:02

Our readers come here for documented facts. Stick to posting them, and avoid personal comments.

And let's have the documented facts refer to Latvia during the Second World War, which is the topic of this thread, and not not to atvia in 1919, unless the latter are essential for explaining the former.

Reigo · Post by **Reigo** » 01 Aug 2006 12:52

Alex Yeliseenko claimed that the information about 7000 Russian Whites in Latvia in March 1919 are supported by the following sources:

1) History Estonian SSR, 1952, page 214
2) Русское Белое движение на обломках Империи в Прибалтике, Томский государственный университет, 1993, page 112

About the first source:
the only corresponding book in the Estonian National Library in Tallinn is the one which title page I posted below.

Everybody, who can understand Russian, can below also see, that on page 214 it is actually discussed the economics of Estonia. In fact I couldn't find nowhere in this book the figure claimed by A. Yeliseenko. The conclusion is:
a) there is some other book with the same title and publishing year
b) A. Yeliseenko lied.

About the second source:
it seems to me that the book under question seems to be known only to A. Yeliseenko himself. Firstly, the book is not quoted as a source by any of the authors dealing with the subject (Baltics 1918-1920) I know (and I know some). Secondly, if one tries to find such a book in the catalogue of the Russian State Library ( http://aleph.rsl.ru/F/-?func=file&file_name=find-a ) then the catalogue doesn't seem to know the book.

And even if the book with the pointed out quote (" 7 thousand Russian in March, 1919 participated in struggle against red only in Latvia and Latgalia ") exists, I would like to inform the author(s) that in Latgalia, which is the Eastern part of Latvia, there was no military action from January till June 1919. If there was some White Russian unit in Latvia in March 1919, then it was in Courland which is far away from Latgalia.

Alex Yeliseenko · Post by **Alex Yeliseenko** » 01 Aug 2006 18:02

The book is published in Moscow instead of in Tallinn.

Only 276 pages.

As soon as I will have a scanner I shall show it. Learn an equipment.

RCW Mark · Post by **RCW Mark** » 02 Aug 2006 07:59

To those somewhat baffled by this exchange, I have written a history of the Latvian 1919 conflict: it's quite long, though not a book's worth.

http://pygmy-wars.50megs.com/history/la ... intro.html

Anyway, my research would indicate that the initial post (split off) is incorrect. The German-Russian army facing the new Latvian republic did not number 50,000 men at all. That number comes from a source which at the time was deliberately seeking to exaggerate German numbers (I have listed their order of battle, so you can see exactly who was there). Neither were most well trained, their morale was low, they were desperately short of supply thanks to a British/French blockade, and they were also fighting in Lithuania. Meanwhile, the Latvian army facing them may have been 13,000 at the start but swelled to more like 20,000 once the fighting began and recruits flooded in.

I'm not denying that the Latvians did wonderfully to rid their country of the Freikorps threat. But do you really think Latvians are so wonderful that they can defeat four times their number of better armed and trained enemy? The actual facts are somewhat more credible.

Next item: Reigo is correct. Only a handful of Russians fought for the Latvian independence movement (under Prince Lieven). They initially assisted a bit in driving the Reds out and were then transferrred to Yudenich, in NW Russia/Estonia. I would note that this group were actually quite opposed to Latvian independence and only fought with the Latvians because they believed the Communists were worse.

If there were 7,000 Russians in Latvia in 1919, then they were the ones fighting against the Latvians and with the Germans under Bermondt-Avalov (himself a Russian).

In 1919 there were precious few Russians prepared to accept Baltic independence: it was something the Reds and Whites agreed on. Not much has changed, it seems.