Can Germany ever be forgiven?

Greenburg · Post by **Greenburg** » 12 Nov 2002 22:28

My mom's uncle was over in Europe in WWII and he told her that he would never be able to forgive the German people for what they did in World War II. I don't know what he saw over there, but that's the attitude that he came home with and that's what my mom remembers him saying.

I think one of the Nazi generals said something like "1000 years will pass and still the guilt of Germany will not have passed."

I don't think they should be forgiven. I mean, here was a regime that was skillfully building furnaces to burn people in. That is just aggregious. I don't know if we can comprehend that? I don't think we should ever forget happened in Nazi Germany. I think the German people should do a better job of confronting their past. I mean, if you are a German, your legacy is that your country used to burn innocent people. You can't forget it. You can't say you had nothing to do with it. Sorry. If you're from Germany, that's part of your heritage. You must deal with it. You should be ashamed of your past.

Oleg Grigoryev · Post by **Oleg Grigoryev** » 12 Nov 2002 22:32

Germany should be forgiven, and at least in Russia, largely forgiven. nazis on the other hand should not be.

Christian Ankerstjerne · Post by **Christian Ankerstjerne** » 12 Nov 2002 22:54

Of course they should be forgiven. Of course, they can say they had nothing to do with it, if they hadn't - otherwise, you would have to be blaimed for the theft of the land from the Indians, and for the conditions they faced then (and now).
Your country kiled inocent people too, that is your legacy... You should be ashamed.

Christian

HaEn · Post by **HaEn** » 12 Nov 2002 23:04

History is full of "barbaric" countries who ruled and despoiled other people. After sufficient time it becomes just "history" and the need for forgiving is no longer there. Turks massacred Armenians; Soviets massacred Ukrainians, and many more "groups'; Chinese, Japanese, Babylonians, Persians, Egyptians, Romans, Greek, British, French, a number of Balkan nations aginst each other, The Catholic church, Islam, etc. etc. each took their turn to suppress, enslave, burn at the stake, anniliate, maim, torture, you name it. I see no reason why Germany or better its Nazi leader's "Reich" should not enter the ranks of those nations that are now "just history". Oh well. apres nous, le deluge !. HN.

Oleg Grigoryev · Post by **Oleg Grigoryev** » 12 Nov 2002 23:07

Soviets massacred Ukrainians

How Ukrainians are different from Soviets? Btw if you referring to famine of 30s it was not limited to the Ukraine - it also struck Russian agricultural areas as well Soviet Asian republics.

Andy H · Post by **Andy H** » 12 Nov 2002 23:08

Almost every nation has skeletons in it's closet and horrors perpetrated in thier name but you have to move on and yes they are forgiven but never forgotten.

On a personnel level your uncle is entilled to his view and given what he may have witnessed be correct in that view, much as my Uncle saw the inside of Changi prison in Singapore under the Japanesse and he still hates them for what they did, whilst my other uncle was in the leading element of a British unit that discovered the horrors of the Concebtration camp outside Hamburg, and never spoke of it to anyone but my father who had served in the Navy, and he hates the Germans for making him see what he saw.

Andy from the Shire

HPL2008 · Post by **HPL2008** » 12 Nov 2002 23:15

Nobody in the world has to be ashamed about his nationality. Nobody in the world has a right to be proud of his nationality, either. Maybe I'll get flak from the left and the right for saying this, but it was always my point of view. I was born well after the end of the Third Reich, so why do I have to feel ashamed for what has been done back then? Are we talking about inherited sins? Responsibility for things that happened before I was born? I will never accept this.
But please understand that I am consequent in this. I'm not ashamed to be German, but I'm not proud of it either. No, I was not an accomplice of Hitler, but I was not the ghostwriter of Goethe or Schiller either. While I can relate to my cultural background, I find no source of pride in it, and it's the same with the darker aspects of our history. I have an interest in them, I try to understand, I don't push them aside or ignore them; as a matter of fact, I find it extremely important to remember them so we can learn from history. They must, indeed, never be forgotten. But for people who played no part in these events whatsoever to feel ashamed and personally responsible for them? No way!
I'm proud of my individual accomplishments in life and of my personal strengths and I'm sorry about the wrong things I personally did and of my individual shortcomings, but that's it. So I totally agree with Oleg and Christian.

Christian Ankerstjerne · Post by **Christian Ankerstjerne** » 12 Nov 2002 23:19

HPL says it well too, that if you haven't actually experinced the horror, you have no reason to feel ashamed or to feel angry.

I am proud of my country in general, but there are moments that doesn't make me proud. I can then choose to ignore them, or to learn from them and educate others about them...

Christian

Andy H · Post by **Andy H** » 12 Nov 2002 23:22

Nobody in the world has a right to be proud of his nationality

Great post, though I'm not sure I agree with the above and in what context your trying to place it, as I'm sure lots of people here are proud of there nationality and some defend it be it on a local level (Bavarian) or on a national level (German). Xenaphobia is another issue and I have little time for them.

Andy from the Shire

Mikey · Post by **Mikey** » 12 Nov 2002 23:30

Let's not forget for a moment that while we (Americans) were off saving Europe from the awful Germans, we were denying US citizens (African-Americans) basic civil rights! Heck, there were still lynchings occuring in the Southern United States into the '50's! Are all Southerners to be ashamed and bear that guilt simply for being from the South?
Christian mentions the American Indians and rightly so. Illinois, your homestate, is named for an Indian tribe that was driven from it's homeland by our own ancestors! Do you bear the guilt? Are you willing to take responsibility and "never be forgiven?"
I don't mean to bash you, but think of the sweeping generalization you are making on the proud and ancient German people.
I'm sure what your relative witnessed was awful, but no more so than what has been perpetrated on countless other people groups throughout history.
Germany must be forgiven for the world to live on. Hatred, bitterness and greed were the roots of what drove the Nazi's to commit their crimes. Hatred and bitterness towards Germany or any people group is equally wrong.

Ovidius · Post by **Ovidius** » 13 Nov 2002 00:51

Greenburg wrote:I don't think they should be forgiven. I mean, here was a regime that was skillfully building furnaces to burn people in. That is just aggregious. I don't know if we can comprehend that? I don't think we should ever forget happened in Nazi Germany. I think the German people should do a better job of confronting their past. I mean, if you are a German, your legacy is that your country used to burn innocent people. You can't forget it. You can't say you had nothing to do with it. Sorry. If you're from Germany, that's part of your heritage. You must deal with it. You should be ashamed of your past.

Laughing out loud.

~Ovidius

b_c_ries · Post by **b_c_ries** » 13 Nov 2002 02:36

Every atrocity ever committed, was fueled by people who blamed a group for some evil that has befallen them. The Nazis blamed the Jews as a group for what happened to them in WW1 and their economic hardships in the 1920s and 1930s. Go ahead and hate specific people for what they did and refuse to forgive them if it makes you happy. But if you want to blame a race of people and consider them unworthy of forgiveness you are a pea-brain. I know that when I was growing up in the 1960s and 1970s I recieved plenty of undeserved brutality by large gangs for being a white guy in a predominately black neighborhood. I have no ill feelings for any race of people but there are a few individuals I would like to meet one on one in a dark alley. btw, none of my ancestors kept slaves though I was beaten down by 5-6 people at a time on several occasions for this crime that I was deemed guilty of by my skin color in fact all my ancestors were Union supporters and one was with Sherman on the march to the Sea. In short, I think anybody that holds people guilty by their racial identity is a jackass.

Dan · Post by **Dan** » 13 Nov 2002 02:53

Hi Greenburg, I think it would be valuable for you to state your ethnic background, and we can all sit in judgement upon the actions of your people. Did they kill hundreds of thousands of Tsutsis? Did they force Koreans or Welsh or Basques to learn a foreign language, did they murder the Son of God in trade for a thief? Did they demand grain from Ireland during a famine? Did they enslave the Messinans for several hundred years?

It would be quite interesting for many of us to discuss the sins of your race, but I doubt that many of us would make such a foolish generalisation as you did.

Withholding regards
Dan

witness · Post by **witness** » 13 Nov 2002 03:15

Hi HPL2008
I am absolutely with you on this. Being ashamed of your nationality or taking pride in it always seemed to be rather foolish to me.
We are born with these Labels (nationalities ) by chance.
This is neither our accomplishment nor crime.
What you make out of yourself is what really matters.

Best Regards.

Birgitte Heuschkel · Post by **Birgitte Heuschkel** » 13 Nov 2002 03:48

I am not German. But if I were to assume for a moment that I was, I would feel no shame whatsoever about WWII. I did not live then. I did not even have the choice to get shot for refusing to cooperate with the Nazis, since I wasn't born until 1970.

I'm Danish. The vikings burned and looted and pillaged and raped their way around the northern hemisphere for several hundred years. We were in on the slave deal for a few centuries. We fought a gazillion border wars over time. We didn't do squat but go yikes! and cooperate for the first year of German occupation, 1940. I don't feel an ounce of shame, because again, I wasn't there.

I do feel shame over things that my government does today, during my lifetime. I do vote, I do write angry letters, and I do whatever else I can to make my political view the dominant one (not that I'm having any great success, given I'm in opposition to the current government, but...).

My point being, be ashamed or proud of events you have actually been involved in or at least contemporary with. The rest is history, and you can and could not do a thing about it.

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