Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

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Vaeltaja
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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by Vaeltaja » 09 Aug 2010 16:53

Art wrote:
Vaeltaja wrote: though there seem to be something odd about the table, the sums in the MIA section
The fate of most missing was clarified: of 176 reported missing during the period 1-10 July, 114 were declared dead, 35 were found among wounded, 3 found among sick, 11 returned to their units intact, 13 remained missing by the end of the month. Pay attention that the monthly report wasn't the sum of ten-days reports but was compiled from monthly reports submitted by subordinate units which were in their turn corrected compared with earlier data.
Ok
how you add the numbers you cant really reach the reported value of 4 400
The V corps had also Finish 17 Division and 3 Brigade, which didn't participate in the battle for the islands but must suffer some losses as well. I took only those units that were in the sector of the 59th Army.
That makes sense. Given that 17th D operated (according to the book) in the Vyborg/Juustila region it would not make much sense to include it into Vyborg Bay totals.

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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by SovietEurope » 12 Aug 2010 16:55

during the vyborg-petrazavodsk operation, soviets lost 22k killed (krivocheev) and the Finns & germans 18k

Vaeltaja
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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by Vaeltaja » 12 Aug 2010 18:28

Well... Krivosheyev is rather inaccurate when it comes to the 'Vyborg-Petrozavodsk' operation. Though his number might be accurate as far as they reach they do contain peculiarities.

His data conveniently ignores the strength and losses of the Leningrad-Front since the June 20. That is to say both Leningrad Fronts losses as well as strength reached their apex between June 21 and July 20. All which is left out from Krivosheyev's data. Also the whole event of battle in the Bay of Vyborg happens exactly within that period of time so it is not present in the losses in for example here http://www.soldat.ru/doc/casualties/boo ... ml#5_10_35

Not to mention that Soviet strength on the Karelian Isthmus (ie. the Leningrad Front) was far greater than the reported 15 division and 1 armored brigade... Going through the reported unit identifiers i seem to see 9 corps level HQs, 26 or 27 infantry divisions (of which 3 guards) and 1 fortified region, 3 armored brigades and additional 14 armored regiments, not to mention 6 brigades and 22 regiments worth of artillery (and mortars etc.)

Manninen has attempted to get more accurate values and ends up with estimated additional 17000 KIA and 47000 WIA to be added to the Krivisheyev's numbers. IIRC anyway.

EDIT: not MIA but WIA
Last edited by Vaeltaja on 12 Aug 2010 20:13, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by John Hilly » 12 Aug 2010 19:14

SovietssavedEurope wrote:during the vyborg-petrazavodsk operation, soviets lost 22k killed (krivocheev) and the Finns & germans 18k
:welcome:

You really have been saving the world during the two days you have been a member, taking part of numerous threads with the same attidude! Better facts, please! :x

Juha-Pekka :milwink:
"Die Blechtrommel trommelt noch!"

SovietEurope
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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by SovietEurope » 12 Aug 2010 23:10

nah, Krivocheev doesn't ignore anything. If the unit isn't listed then its subunits or whatever maybe were assigned to a specific army, I don't know. fact is, krivocheev's strength for Soviets match the Finnish claims.

Fact: 22k soviets dead, 18k finns. And this is with Soviets attacking Finnish lines that had been fortified for a very long time.

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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by JTV » 13 Aug 2010 05:06

SovietssavedEurope wrote:nah, Krivocheev doesn't ignore anything. If the unit isn't listed then its subunits or whatever maybe were assigned to a specific army, I don't know. fact is, krivocheev's strength for Soviets match the Finnish claims.

Fact: 22k soviets dead, 18k finns. And this is with Soviets attacking Finnish lines that had been fortified for a very long time.
Well, you something right - the part that you don't know. :lol: As for number of Soviet formations and likely reason why the Krivosheyev's information is lacking, check:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 9&t=168438

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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by SovietEurope » 13 Aug 2010 17:20

so? It means those losses were insignificant or maybe they were added to another unit's losses.

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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by Vaeltaja » 13 Aug 2010 18:39

No it does not. Krivosheyev's data specifically states that it contains (of the V-P offensive) Leningrad Fronts losses between June 9 and June 20. And as it happens there are wide (and i do mean wide) variety of documents on the Soviet side (including STAVKA orders signed by Stalin) confirming that Leningrad Front's offensive continued well past the June 20 in addition to numerous Finnish & German sources. In short those losses are totally ignored by Krivosheyev.

And no they were not insignificant. Actually they were rather heavy. And they were not included in "another unit's losses". For one reason or another the data was not included in Krivosheyev's lists. Granted Krivosheyev's data stops at sort of logical spot - that is at conclusion of the Vyborg offensive. However it totally ignores the 'Lappeenranta-Virojoki' offensive ordered by STAVKA to start at June 21 by Leningrad Front (as well as offensive towards 'Kymijoki' also mentioned in STAVKA order) south of the operation boundary set between Leningrad and Karelian Fronts. And yes. It was in addition to the Karelian Front's offensive which also begun on June 20 - 21.

For reference.. Ставка ВГК. 1944-1945 гг. Том 16 (5-4), and link: 1944-1945.doc. Relevant orders are #117 and #120. Though #121, #171 and #190 are also very informative.

And as said Manninen (Finnish historian) has tried to piece together the Soviet losses for the time period omitted by Krivosheyev but i doubt - from the rhetorics - that you would accept those values even though those are based on the data from Soviet/Russian archives.

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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by Slava_M » 30 Aug 2010 11:36

SovietssavedEurope wrote:so? It means those losses were insignificant or maybe they were added to another unit's losses.
At least 1600 deaths had been omitted by Krivosheev in his calculations for 10-20.06.44.Is it a neglible number?
I answered more complete here
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 9&t=168438

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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by Slava_M » 31 Aug 2010 07:48

Thank you for excellent information!
It can take months to make an analysis of TsAMO documents scans at OBD Memorial site, but I hope one day I'll obtain the (more or less) complete table of losses of 224 RD vs date of death.
Art wrote:After Ravansaari was taken on 4 July, the 185th Regiment formed two composite companies of remaining personnel. On 5 July after noon one company landed on Vasikkasaari and southern part of Turkinsaari, the other - on the southern coast of Hannustiensaari. Both companies used boats, Navy's ships didn't took part in action. On 5 and 6 July both groups were dislodged by Finns from Turkin- and Hannustiensaari. Vasikkasaari remained in Soviet hands. The days of 6 and 7 July were quiet, in the evening of 7 July two companies of a newly formed 3rd Battalion/185 Rifle Regiment made a landing on Hapenesari using 1 tender and 2 ZIS cutters. The occupied the central part of the island but in the ensuing night battle were counterattacked by German-Finnish forces and dislodged from the island. The remaining company of the 3rd battalion was called for reinforcement but due to mistake a part of it landed in the southern part of Hannustiensaari, the rest were beaten back. On 8th July the regiment transferred part of its personnel to the 143 Rifle Regiment and switched to defense. A small group (several dozens men) continued to defend a piece of ground on Hannustiensaari despite repeated attacks on them in July-August.
I don't remember that 185 RR undertook landings on Harjuniemi and Pispansaari, and reports of the Finnish Cavalry Brigade don't speak of them, but I'll check it anyway.
It is hardly possible to estimate losses in these particular episodes. In all according to a divisional reports the regiment lost 467 killed in action, 420 wounded, 52 missing during 1-9 July 1944. Most missing were found dead or alive after 9 July.

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Juha Tompuri
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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by Juha Tompuri » 24 May 2013 20:37

JTV wrote:BTW: Does anybody have more detailed info about the Soviet landing barges used in Bay of Viipuri in 1944?
Here a photo of one Soviet landing craft captured by Finns (at Bay of Viipuri?) in 1941 outside a warbooty exhibition at Helsinki.:
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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by kansa2 » 25 May 2013 09:45

In addition on russian landing crafts, tenders -
http://hobbyport.ru/other/ships/tender.htm
If already was- sorry!
Best regards !
Sergey

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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by Juha Tompuri » 29 Aug 2013 18:41

If I understood correctly from the Russian language photo caption this and an another MFP were captured by Soviet during the Bay of Viipuri/Vyborg battles 1944?
Any more info - where, when?
At Koivisto?
Image
http://waralbum.ru/40001/

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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by Swing » 30 Aug 2013 07:56

Juha Tompuri wrote: this and an another MFP were captured by Soviet during the Bay of Viipuri/Vyborg battles 1944?
Regards, Juha
On my mind it is a fake. There is no official information about capturing of german ships during Koivisto/Viipurinlahti battles. Moreover, "V-31" and "V-1" tactical numbers in Russian text related to this photo are false. Correct number must begin from F, B, or AF. This question was discussed at number of Russian forums. In 1994 list of captured and reparated navy ships was released (based on Russian archives, in Russian only). There is no any related information. Photo with landing of armored car is dated by 1946 and is an example of propaganda.

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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by Juha Tompuri » 01 Sep 2013 19:42

Swing, thank you very much for the correction.
Swing wrote: There is no official information about capturing of german ships during Koivisto/Viipurinlahti battles.
That is how I too have understood the case to have been.

Regards, Juha

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