Unknown 105mm gun - HELP!

The Edge · Post by **The Edge** » 23 Sep 2006 21:29

I visited Belgrade Military Museum yesterday, where I found one artillery piece unknown to me. This is WWI-era weapon of 105 mm caliber, probably German origins, but produced for foreign customer (Turkey?). It is wrongly identified as M.1898/09.

Anybody recognize this gun?

(Any data, too...)

The Edge · Post by **The Edge** » 23 Sep 2006 21:31

more:

The Edge · Post by **The Edge** » 23 Sep 2006 21:35

Markings on top side:

jopaerya · Post by **jopaerya** » 23 Sep 2006 21:52

Hi The Edge

My 2 cents are the 10 cm Horska Houfnice
Vz 16/19 , also exported to Turkey , but I
am really not sure , pure guessing

Regards Jos

Tosun Saral · Post by **Tosun Saral** » 24 Sep 2006 18:27

I understand from the marking on top side that this gun produced for Ottoman Turkish Army. It must be captured by Serbs during the Balkan Wars. The marking is written in old Ottoman Turkish letters. We dont use such letters since 1928. Therefore I can not read. May be some one who read Arabic letters can enlighten us about the meaning.

Carl Schwamberger · Post by **Carl Schwamberger** » 24 Sep 2006 21:45

The tube, breach, & a few other parts are rather modern looking. I'm wondering if this is a cannon of the 1930s on a older carriage?

The Edge · Post by **The Edge** » 24 Sep 2006 22:45

Carl Schwamberger wrote:The tube, breach, & a few other parts are rather modern looking. I'm wondering if this is a cannon of the 1930s on a older carriage?

As Tosun said, arabic letters on Turkish gun means pre-1928 weapon. There is one "1958" mark on the gun, but I don't believe is original (not on the right place - probably Yugoslav Army post WWII marking - for unknown reason).

There is a misterious "Krupp M.1917" gun (105 mm L/20), suggested by friend from Italy, but without solid evidence (photo). Somebody has photo of this one?

Carl Schwamberger · Post by **Carl Schwamberger** » 25 Sep 2006 14:39

This is frustrating. Certain bits of the recoil mechanism resemble those in Wehrmacht use, tho rare. Specificly some cannon made by the Austrian firm of Bohler. The lower part of the recaoil mechanism under the cannon tube and the attachment of the cannon to the lower portion is very similar to the 10.5mm Gebirgshaubitze 40. But the upper portion of the recoil mechanizm of the Geb H 40 is missing from the mystery gun.

There are also a lot of general similarities between the trails and layout of the traverse & elevation mechanisms to the Geb H 40. But, again as with the recoil system a lot of big & little parts are missing.

I also have a photograph of a Skoda cannon prototype from the 1940s (10.5cm le FH 43), which has a very similar single cylinder recoil mechanism under the cannon tube. Still there are a lot of small details varying from the mystery guns recoil parts.

Perhaps there is futher information on Bohler's products from the 1920s that might help?

The Edge · Post by **The Edge** » 25 Sep 2006 15:29

Carl Schwamberger wrote: Perhaps there is futher information on Bohler's products from the 1920s that might help?

I'll try this lead too - makes sence, because Turkey bought a lot of Austrian artillery during WWII - Skoda 75mm Mnt guns, Skoda 100 mm field and 150 mm heavy howitzers. So order for Bohler 105mm gun/howitzer is quite possible!

(Funny thing is - museum had TWO such guns!

)

Carl Schwamberger · Post by **Carl Schwamberger** » 26 Sep 2006 02:24

A question I neglected earlier - were there not marks on the breach block? Most cannon have some identification there, even if just a numerical code from the foundry. Marks on the cannon tude are much less common.

The Edge · Post by **The Edge** » 26 Sep 2006 08:13

Carl Schwamberger wrote:A question I neglected earlier - were there not marks on the breach block? Most cannon have some identification there, even if just a numerical code from the foundry. Marks on the cannon tude are much less common.

Yes, I spotted Krupp markings on other two Turkish guns in museum collection. (KRUPP ESSEN sign plus more Turkish text in arabic letters at the back of breech-blocks; even take photo of M.04 field gun markings)

Must be more pedantic next time.

Maybe "the truth will come out"

The Edge · Post by **The Edge** » 26 Sep 2006 08:27

Another "stinker"

- probably Rumanian 15cm Krupp heavy howitzer.
I know only for 16 pcs of Schneider M.1912 howitzers (15cm) purchased from Rumania.
This "C I" marking is for "Carol The First" - he died in 1914, so the gun must be purchased by that time.
Maybe Krupp 15cm heavy howitzer M.1913 model?

Again, any info will be most appreciated!

The Edge · Post by **The Edge** » 27 Sep 2006 08:17

jopaerya wrote:Hi The Edge
My 2 cents are the 10 cm Horska Houfnice
Vz 16/19 , also exported to Turkey , but I
am really not sure , pure guessing
Regards Jos

Your guessing was right - IT IS Vz 16/19!

Finally I got really good photo of Vz 16/19 (it is either a good photos of Vz 14/19 or bed ones of Vz 16/19... or Vz 14/19 wrongly identified as 16/19!

Try to Google with Skoda Vz 16/19 100mm howitzer and see for yourself

)

Thanks all - Jop, Tosun & Carl

Regards, Edge

For the ones not convinced - compare upper photos with this lower (My friend Marco found it in Franz KOSAR's book "Die Gebirgsartillerie: Geschichte, Waffen, Organisation" )

The Edge · Post by **The Edge** » 28 Sep 2006 13:29

... and than it's this picture down that bothers me.

Not a great photo quality (scanned photocopy from "Yugoslav military encyclopedia"), but it is obvious that this piece combine M.16 type (mountain) carriage with vz. 14/19 style barrel/cradle, dissimilar to photos I posted and Marco's photo of vz. 16/19 from Kosar.

Standard or non-standard model?

Anybody else has good photo of Skoda 16/19 ?

The Edge · Post by **The Edge** » 29 Sep 2006 10:58

Thanks to jopareya, things are cleared a lot.

There were TWO variants, one along original vz.16 lines (mountain type with lighter barrel and easy-to-dismantle arrangement) and one with mixed vz.14/16 characteristic (heavier barrel, but vz.16 type mountain carriage);
From my data vz.16 (vz.16/19 also) could be broken into 3 loads for mountain transportation (pair of horses tow each one); vz.14-16/19 (to call it this way, strictly unofficially) could be broken in only two loads, I believe.
This "mixed" variant was probably produced for nations having extra vz.14 models for modernization, but lacking enough heavier mountain artillery pieces - Italy and Yugoslavia, for example... maybe Czechoslovakia and Rumania too)

This make enough sense - my problem solved.

Regards, Edge