Did Geneva Conventions made difference to treatment of POWS

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Roberto
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Post by Roberto » 28 Nov 2002 11:23

nuplicid wrote:
Roberto wrote:Any examples of "losers" being pronounced guilty on account of behavior that complied with codified or customary international law?


Erich Hartmann (Germany's top fighter ace) was tried by the Soviet Union for war crimes, simply for inflicting so many kills.


Was he tried and convicted, or did they just keep him a little longer on account of trumped-up war crimes allegations?

I would be interested in the details, especially in when Hartmann was charged with war crimes and what exactly he was charged with.
IIRC, the Soviet government at some time in the late 1940s made a number of German POWs into war criminals - whether they had in fact committed such crimes or not - in order to retain them as a labor force.

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Scott Smith
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Post by Scott Smith » 28 Nov 2002 11:34

Roberto wrote:
nuplicid wrote:
Roberto wrote:Any examples of "losers" being pronounced guilty on account of behavior that complied with codified or customary international law?

Erich Hartmann (Germany's top fighter ace) was tried by the Soviet Union for war crimes, simply for inflicting so many kills.

Was he tried and convicted, or did they just keep him a little longer on account of trumped-up war crimes allegations?

I would be interested in the details, especially in when Hartmann was charged with war crimes and what exactly he was charged with.
IIRC, the Soviet government at some time in the late 1940s made a number of German POWs into war criminals - whether they had in fact committed such crimes or not - in order to retain them as a labor force.

I have Hartmann's memoirs but it has been a long time since I have read them. When I have time tomorow I'll check for you unless someone else wants to do it. I also have Gottlob Biedermann's, and I recall that possessing an Iron Cross was a warcrime. I have studied the Krasnodar and Kharkov warcrimes trials from 1943 and I don't see how anybody could say that these Soviet show-trials were legitimate by Western standards (except maybe you). Am I wrong?
:)

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Roberto
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Post by Roberto » 28 Nov 2002 11:51

Scott Smith wrote:
Roberto wrote:
nuplicid wrote:
Roberto wrote:Any examples of "losers" being pronounced guilty on account of behavior that complied with codified or customary international law?

Erich Hartmann (Germany's top fighter ace) was tried by the Soviet Union for war crimes, simply for inflicting so many kills.

Was he tried and convicted, or did they just keep him a little longer on account of trumped-up war crimes allegations?

I would be interested in the details, especially in when Hartmann was charged with war crimes and what exactly he was charged with.
IIRC, the Soviet government at some time in the late 1940s made a number of German POWs into war criminals - whether they had in fact committed such crimes or not - in order to retain them as a labor force.

I have Hartmann's memoirs but it has been a long time since I have read them. When I have time tomorow I'll check for you unless someone else wants to do it. I also have Gottlob Biedermann's, and I recall that possessing an Iron Cross was a warcrime.


Don't bother. I'm sure nuplicid will be glad to provide the requested information.

Scott Smith wrote:I have studied the Krasnodar and Kharkov warcrimes trials from 1943 and I don't see how anybody could say that these Soviet show-trials were legitimate by Western standards (except maybe you). Am I wrong?
:)


Don't generalize. While Hartmann et al may have got an unfair deal, what you have shown us of the Krasnodar and Kharkov war crimes trials actually suggests that they weren't all that bad, also considering that their findings were largely confirmed in trials before independent West German courts in the 1960s.

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Mike K.
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Post by Mike K. » 28 Nov 2002 22:57

Erich Hartmann's 352 confirmed kills earned him a notorious reputation among the Russians as the "Black Devil of the Ukraine", and a 10,000 ruble bounty on his head.

He was finally downed in May 8, 1945 and surrendered to American authorities, but was later handed over to the Soviet Union. His refusal to help the Soviets organize the East German airforce earned him a mock war crimes trial and 10 1/2 years in a labor camp. He was finally released to West Germany in 1955 and received a hero's welcome.

I'm having difficulty locating the exact allegations, if Scott could assist it would be appreciated. :) Whatever they were, it's obvious his imprisonment was an illegitimate act of spite for his refusal to collaborate, and a blatant violation of international law.
Last edited by Mike K. on 29 Nov 2002 05:48, edited 1 time in total.

David Thompson
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Post by David Thompson » 29 Nov 2002 05:30

Here's Hartmann's account of his war crimes trial from Toliver, Col. Raymond F. and Trevor J. Constantine, "The Blond Knight of Germany," Ballantine Books, New York:1971
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Post by David Thompson » 29 Nov 2002 05:32

Here's some more:
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Post by David Thompson » 29 Nov 2002 05:34

And the rest of the account:
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Post by David Thompson » 29 Nov 2002 05:36

From the same book, here are photographs of Hartmann taken 14 Jun 1943 (at the time of his engagement with his future wife, Ush) and 15 Oct 1955 (on release from Soviet captivity):
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Scott Smith
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Post by Scott Smith » 29 Nov 2002 06:53

Over the top! Thanks, David.
:D

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Post by Scott Smith » 29 Nov 2002 07:07

Downed American airmen were told by the North Vietnamese that the Geneva conventions didn't apply to them because they were war-criminals.
:)

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Mike K.
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Post by Mike K. » 29 Nov 2002 08:17

Yeah, thanks for the great info, David. :)

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Post by Karl XII » 30 Nov 2002 15:58

Nice reading! I would however like to read more about him. could you be so kind and scan the rest of the book? :D I know it's a lot to ask for but it would be really nice.

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Post by David Thompson » 30 Nov 2002 16:52

Karl XII -- It would be nice if the national and international copyright laws permitted it, but they don't. It would be illegal to scan and post the entire book, which is under copyright and protected. Try your local library!

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Scott Smith
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Erich Hartmann

Post by Scott Smith » 30 Nov 2002 22:13

Karl XII wrote:
David Thompson wrote:Nice reading! I would however like to read more about him. could you be so kind and scan the rest of the book? :D I know it's a lot to ask for but it would be really nice.

Karl XII -- It would be nice if the national and international copyright laws permitted it, but they don't. It would be illegal to scan and post the entire book, which is under copyright and protected. Try your local library!

Yes, scanning an entire chapter for academic-use is probably pushing the limits of propriety. If you can't find it at the library you can purchase it from Amazon and acutally support this very site, ONLY by clicking my link below:

CLICK! Image

Karl XII
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Post by Karl XII » 01 Dec 2002 02:56

Actuly I did check with my local libraries before I asked you. And Amazone is not an option since i don't have any credit card.

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