Right identification of 7.5cm FK 249(j)

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The Edge
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Right identification of 7.5cm FK 249(j)

Post by The Edge » 26 Sep 2006 10:14

Hello all,

According to this: http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=1268 , 7.5 cm FK 249(j) is “ex-Yugoslav M-12 Skoda”.

I was absolutely sure this is wrong. There were Skoda M.12 export guns – 24 pieces, made for China, seized by Austro-Hungarian Army when WWI broke out. It is hardly possible that any of them survived war in usable condition, much less that Yugoslav Army inherited them in considerable numbers. In any case, these guns were L/29 barrel. Serbia before 1914 didn’t buy a single gun from Skoda – there is well known episode from history when Austro-Hungary impressed economical blockade on Serbia because they chose to purchase artillery from France (Schneider-Cresuot).

I obtained data/picture for FK 249(j) thanks to our member EPOCH3:
http://members.cox.net/oddessa_ss/75mm% ... 249(j).JPG

In Interwar Yugoslav army three types of 75mm field guns existed:
- 75mm M.07 & M.07A (ex-Serbian guns, Schneider L/31.4; small number)
- 75mm M.97 (French Mle 1897, obtained 1919 from “Armée de Hongrie”)
- 75mm M.12 (Schneider L/30 field gun, obtained from France at 1916 Salonica Front)

So, the most probable candidate for FK 249(j) is last one – except one crucial data don’t fit! Barrel length for FK 249(j) is L/25.4, but the manual from Yugoslav Military Academy in 1936 (author Brigade General Dragoljub Dinic) stated L/30 barrel for Mle 12 gun!

My friend Marco from Italy sent me a list of 75 mm non-Mle 1897 field guns used by French Army in 1914-18 (still in inventory of French Army in 1940)

- 75mm L/25 Mle 1912 Schneider (model for horse artillery).
- 75mm L/31 Mle 1914 Schneider (for export sales, but seized by French Army).
- 75mm L/30 Mle 1914 St. Chamond (for export sales, but seized by French Army).

(I found only one source which mentions these Mle 1912 & Mle 1914 guns in French armament: http://panzergeneral.strategyplanet.gam ... index.html )

This L/25 Mle 1912 (horse artillery model) became my most probable suspect. There is one Mle 1912 in Belgrade Military museum (see photos) with strangely short barrel (it also have odd label “Le Havre 1928” on breech) and seemingly identical to the gun from beute-book. Arming Serbian Army on 1916 Salonika Front with lesser-weight cavalry gun makes sense – they covered one of worst terrain. Similarly, 35th Italian division had only 65mm mountain guns (plus supporting French artillery units); Greek forces had 60:40 ratio of mountain/field artillery pieces. (Serbian Army 1918: 112 field (most of them French 75mm Mle 12, some Serbian 75mm Schneider M.07), 116 mountain guns – 108 x 65M Mle 06, 4 x 75M Mle 09, 4 x 70M Serbian Schneider M.07)

After finding this Czech source - http://www1.webpark.cz/rakuherarmada/zbrane.htm#top – I was now sure that Mle 12 in Serbian / Yugoslav armament must be L/25.4 barrel. Data from 1936 Yugoslav Military Academy manual must be wrong! So I found info – implicit proof – on next page, covering Serbian M.1907 gun – to save space, it is described shortly as “almost identical as Mle 12, except of barrel length, weight and range”. As mentioned, M.1907’s barrel was L/31.4; if Mle 12 did have the L/30 barrel, that is only 105mm difference, so – why bother? M.1907 was field gun – naturally, it is heavier than Mle 12 horse artillery model. Longer range of M.1907 (10 km) also suggests considerably longer barrel!

So, this is it! FK 249(j) is ex-Yugoslav Royal Army Schneider Mle 12 gun. 8-)

(To explain a little Serbian markings on beute-list: “ПОЉСКИ ТОПОВА“ should mean “field gun” – but grammar is not correct. Also, German “jug 12 S” designation means Schneider, not Skoda gun – remember famous Schneider’s L13S gun (105mm) ? )

Table and all color photos from author (Belgrade Military Museum). For FK 249(j) source is already mentioned.

Regards,

Edge / Antic
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Last edited by The Edge on 26 Sep 2006 12:50, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by The Edge » 26 Sep 2006 10:25

Table for data comparation and beute-photo of FK 249(j)

Edge / Antic
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Post by Marcus » 30 Sep 2006 10:45

Thanks The Edge.

My knowledge of military hardware is very limited so can anyone confirm that the FK 249(j) was ex-Yugoslav Schneider Mle 12 gun?

/Marcus

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Post by The Edge » 04 Oct 2006 10:13

More info about Schneider Mle 12 from this South American Forum:
http://www.militar.org.ua/phpBB2/viewto ... c&start=20

Cañon de Artillería Montada de 75 mm Mle 1912 Schneider

El cañón de 75 mm Schneider modelo 1912 fue hecho para la Artillería Montada francesa en 1912 y algunos fueron vendidos a Serbia. Al fin de la Primera Guerra Mundial, todos los cañones en servicio en el Ejercito Francés fueron reemplazados por el Cañón de 75 mm Mle 1897. Los remanentes fueron vendidos a Yugoslavia y especialmente a Polonia, en donde fueron utilizados en la Guerra de Independencia y en la Guerra Polaco-Bolchevique.

Calibre : 75 mm
Longitud del cañón : (?)
Peso en combate : 965kg
Protección : Escudo de 6.5mm
Cadencia de tiro : 12 - 15-dpm
Tiro vertical : -8° to +17°
Tiro transversal : 10° (supongo que total)
Velocidad Inicial : 520 m/s (HE)
Alcance máximo : 9500m
Sirvientes : 1 NCO + 7 men

(Range is different - maybe it is for some type of shell used in 1930s Peru? No info about shell weight, so I could only speculate - lighter shell with better B.C., like 6kg one for Bofors field gun? :roll: )

Regards, Edge
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Post by jopaerya » 04 Oct 2006 10:44

Hi

Your proof is overwhelming and the case looks solid , but
the only German proof I could find is the phrase M 12 .

Regards Jos

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Post by The Edge » 04 Oct 2006 10:58

jopaerya wrote:Hi
Your proof is overwhelming and the case looks solid , but
the only German proof I could find is the phrase M 12 .
Regards Jos
How about this "jug 12S" designation? :roll: (on beute-page)

For example, there was Schneider "L13S" (105mm mle 13). "L" stands for "long".
There was also Schneider "C17S" (155mm mle 17). "C" stands for "court" (short).
So, if the gun have "normal" length of barrel (i.e. for field gun) - no special markings is required!

So, Schneider Mle 12 (75 mm L/25.4) field gun would be - "12S" :idea:

Regards, Edge

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Post by jopaerya » 04 Oct 2006 11:13

Hi The Edge

The problem is the 12 S could mean Schneider but also Skoda ,
maybe this helps on 01-03-1944 there were still 84 guns of the
type 7,5 cm F.K. 249 (j) in active German service .

Regards Jos

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Post by The Edge » 04 Oct 2006 11:14

Looking for "Schneider mle 14" field gun (Schneider commercial gun, adopted by French military when WWI broke out), I stumbled on this:
http://www.answers.com/topic/canon-de-7 ... -schneider

It seams that South American info is just translation of this one.

Photo of gun is actualy from Warsaw Museum.

No info about ammo also - so I suspect best French WWI shell model ("D") of 7.25 kg weight is used. :roll:
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Post by The Edge » 04 Oct 2006 11:25

jopaerya wrote:Hi The Edge
The problem is the 12 S could mean Schneider but also Skoda ,
maybe this helps on 01-03-1944 there were still 84 guns of the
type 7,5 cm F.K. 249 (j) in active German service .
Regards Jos
This info is helpful a little - it only shows these guns were not used intensively, probably only on second-grade fronts (Yugoslavia, Greece) by units of similar value.

Let's go the other way around - do ANYBODY have other info (maybe even photo) for "Skoda M12" gun? :roll:
(I know this is export field gun model - with seats for crew on schield, as M.05/08 model - not seen on FK 249(j) photo)

I don't have "beute book", so please see did following guns have "S" suffix in their designation ("for Skoda") - this would help a lot!
8cm FK 05/08(ö) ................................ 05/08S ?
8cm FK 17(ö) & (t) ............................... 17S ?
10cm leFH 315(j) .............................. "jug 14S" ?
10.5cm FK 320(i) ................................. 15S ?

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Post by The Edge » 06 Oct 2006 08:10

I had to call a "heavy support" for my field artillery issue... :wink: :D

According to my friend:

"Italy captured some of 75mm Skoda M12 guns in ship Bayern in 1915 and captured some of them at the end of the war. The technical data are absolutely different from the data of "your" FK 249(j). In every book I could see this morning in the library, Italian guns used by German Army in WW2 have not any designation of the firm that produced them: Schneider 105M mod. 1919 was 10.5cm GebH-322 (f) and 75mm Skoda M.1915 was 7.5cm GebK-259 (i). (I wanted to see wether "S" means "Skoda" or "Schneider": since Italy used many Skoda guns in WW2, I thought it was easy to discover the truth). Perhaps so detailed designations are only in the "beute book" where you found the picture and the data of the gun.
SOURCE of the pictures: (No3 - not sure, sorry)
1. A.CURAMI - A. MASSIGNANI, L'artiglieria italiana nella grande guerra, Novale, Rossato 1998, p. 88.
2. F.CAPPELLANO, L'artiglieria austro-ungarica nella grande guerra, Novale, Rossato 2001, p. 176
All the best,
Marco"


I closely examine these photos - they don't have crew seats, as I expected, but newertheless, this Skoda M12 gun is completely different than FK 249(j) photo from German source. Schneider Mle 12 is only viable option - Q.E.D. :) So I rest my case. 8-)

Regards, Edge / Antic

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Post by jopaerya » 06 Oct 2006 19:33

Hi Edge

You have convince me , the FK 249(j) is
the Schneider Mle 12 (75 mm L/25.4) .

Regards Jos

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Post by The Edge » 06 Oct 2006 20:44

jopaerya wrote: You have convince me, the FK 249(j) is
the Schneider Mle 12
Tks :D

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Post by The Edge » 09 Oct 2006 20:29

All my troubles... AND SEE THIS: http://www.slcmaquettes.com/nouveau_fichier84.html

Remark for 7.5-cm FK 249(j) - Canon de campagne yougoslave de 75mm mle M12 - Schneider

(Juha put this link yesterday in my other topic - unknown 105mm gun ) :?

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Post by Marcus » 11 Oct 2006 18:16

I've made that change on the site, thanks.

/Marcus

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Re: Right identification of 7.5cm FK 249(j)

Post by adolpheit » 17 Nov 2006 17:10

The Edge wrote:
My friend Marco from Italy sent me a list of 75 mm non-Mle 1897 field guns used by French Army in 1914-18 (still in inventory of French Army in 1940)

- 75mm L/25 Mle 1912 Schneider (model for horse artillery).
- 75mm L/31 Mle 1914 Schneider (for export sales, but seized by French Army).
- 75mm L/30 Mle 1914 St. Chamond (for export sales, but seized by French Army).

Edge / Antic
Now I - his friend - have more detailed informations about these guns.

75mm Mle 1912 Schneider
In spring 1912 French Army adopted a light guns for its 30 horse artillery batteries. At that time as a rule every horse can draw on every kind of ground and at great velocity only 260 kg. So an artillery team with its six horses could draw only 1560 kg, too much for the standart field artillery gun (the "soixante-quinze") that weighted in marching order 1970 kg). The new gun was developed from a light gun offered to Russian Army (Schneider designation PD 13, calibre 76.2 mm) and was tested by 1st Cavalry Division.
In 1912 were orderd 30 batteries and they were assigned to the 10 cavalry division of French Army.
In September 1914 further 12 batteries were ordered and they were delivered within summer 1915.
In May 1915 200 more guns were ordered and were delivered during 1916.

French designation : Canon de campagne de 75mm modèle 1912 Schneider
Schneider designation : 75mm modèle PD 13 bis
Calibre : 75mm L/25.4
Weight in action : 960 kg
Weight in marching order : 1550 kg
Number of barrel grooves : 24
Shells :
Obus à balles Mle 1897 : 7.24 / 7.4 kg (261 / 290 bullets x 12 g)
Obus Mle 1900 : 5.5 kg (bursting charge : 0.695 kg of Schneiderite)
Muzzle velocity : 500 m/s (shrapnel)
Max. range : 7500 m (shrapnel)
Elevation : + 17° / - 8°
Traversing angle : 9°

75mm Mle 1914 Schneider
In September 1914 Greek Army ordered 8 batteries of a 75mm field gun. French Army requisitioned them and they were delivered in June-July 1915, a battery every week. I was very similair to the field gun adopted by Serbian Army (Schneider designation PD 6). As soon as standard French field guns were available the ex Greek guns were retired and assigned to French "Balkan alleys" (I don't wether Serbia or Grece or both).

French designation : Canon de campagne de 75mm modèle 1914 Schneider
Schneider designation : 75mm modèle PD 7
Calibre : 75mm L/31.4
Weight in action : 1096 kg
Weight in marching order : 1796 kg
Number of barrel grooves : 24
Shells :
Obus à balles Mle 1897 : 7.24 / 7.4 kg (261 / 290 bullets x 12 g)
Obus Mle 1900 : 5.5 kg (bursting charge : 0.695 kg of Schneiderite)
Muzzle velocity : 513 m/s (shrapnel)
Max. range : 6300 m (shrapnel)
Elevation : + 16° / - 8° 30'
Traversing angle : 6°

75mm Mle 1914 St. Chamond
This is a gun adopted by Mexican Army. It was partly designed by colonel Mondragon. In September 1912 French Army ordered 20 batteries of this gun, soon increased to 40. But in mid November 1914 the order was cancelled, since French Army thought that it had enough 75mm guns, but it needed ammunitions and heavy artillery. But in May 1915 "par meseure de bonne justice" (to recompensate the cancellation of the previous order), Saint-Chamond received another order of 200 guns (delivered in 1916). In November 1914 also the order to Schneider was cancelled, but Schneider was able to keep it, saying that the gun were already in production. Some of these guns were used on the first serie of Saint-Chamond tanks.

French designation : Canon de campagne de 75mm Saint-Chamond (modèle 1915)
Calibre : 75mm L/28.5
Weight in action : 1090 kg
Weight in marching order : 1770 kg
Number of barrel grooves : 24
Shield thickness : 5mm
Shells :
Obus à balles Mle 1897 : 7.24 / 7.4 kg (261 / 290 bullets x 12 g)
Obus Mle 1900 : 5.5 kg (bursting charge : 0.695 kg)
Muzzle velocity : 513 m/s (shrapnel)
Max. range : 8000 m (theoretical) / 6500 m (effective)
Elevation : + 17° / - 8°
Traversing angle : 5°
Remarks : la designation "modèle 1915" was only unofficial.

SOURCE: Pierre TOUZIN & François VAUVILLIER: Les canons de la victoire 1914-1918. Tome 1: L'artillerie de campagne. Paris: Histoire et Collections 2006
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