Estonia, Stalin and Hitler

KalaVelka · Post by **KalaVelka** » 01 Oct 2006 09:07

During the war, Estonia was occupied by both of the tyrannies. CCCP occupied the country for about a year in the start of the 40s and occupied it again when the germans fled in 44. So the question is did the estonian people suffer more in the CCCP time or under the Third Reich?

Sergey · Post by **Sergey** » 01 Oct 2006 14:11

KalaVelka wrote:During the war, Estonia was occupied by both of the tyrannies. CCCP occupied the country for about a year in the start of the 40s and occupied it again when the germans fled in 44. So the question is did the estonian people suffer more in the CCCP time or under the Third Reich?

Then I was a post-graduate student in Moscow university (25 years ago) I knew 2 Estonians (they also studied there). The Bridge (card game) united us. Still I remember how to bid in Estonina:

Riisti, Ruutu, Artu, Pada, Trumbita (Clubs, Diamonds, Heards, Spades, No trumps).

Also, I still remember: uks, kaks, kolm, nelli viis, kuus, seiste. (1,2,3,4,5,6,7).

I visited Estonia (took part in bridge competitions). What can I say? Probably it was an occupation but very specific one. Living standards were visibly higher in Estonia than in other parts of Soviet Union.

As for your question then taking into acoount that Estonian are very close to Finns ethnically then oppressions of local population in Estonia (as in many other counties) would be alogical.

KalaVelka · Post by **KalaVelka** » 01 Oct 2006 15:16

Thanks but I was looking for numbers of killings, deportions etc from the war time

David Thompson · Post by **David Thompson** » 01 Oct 2006 15:23

KalaVelka -- You wrote:

So the question is did the estonian people suffer more in the CCCP time or under the Third Reich?

We don't permit opinion threads or posts here, and "which country was worse" threads are notorious for starting flame wars. If you want to have a sourced discussion of facts about the occupation of Estonia under the USSR or a sourced discussion of facts about the occupation of Estonia under Nazi Germany, that's fine. but we're not interested in having an opinionated flame thread.

Since the purpose of this section of the forum is to exchange information and hold informed discussions about historical problems, posts which express unsolicited opinions without supporting facts and sources do not promote the purposes of the forum. Consequently, such posts are subject to deletion after a warning to the poster.

The same reasoning applies to opinion threads.

H&WC Section Rules
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=53962

I'll give you a chance to clarify the topic before I close it.

KalaVelka · Post by **KalaVelka** » 01 Oct 2006 18:09

To clarify this topic, I just need the separate numbers of deported/killed people in estonia during the soviet/german occupation.

Thank you

Griffin76 · Post by **Griffin76** » 01 Oct 2006 18:12

KalaVelka wrote:Thanks but I was looking for numbers of killings, deportions etc from the war time

According to Montefiore's book on Stalin:

"A total of 34,250 Latvians, almost 60,000 Estonians and 75,000 Lithuanians were murdered or deported."

pg 334

Here's a webpage containing graphic pictures of NKVD torture and murder victims in neighboring Latvia:

http://lettorszag.5u.com/LatviaYs1525.htm

It looks like the Baltic states suffered immensely under both totalitarian regimes.

KalaVelka · Post by **KalaVelka** » 01 Oct 2006 18:53

Thanks. Do you know if the 60.000 are only from the short period in the early 40's or have there also been counted also the killings and moves from 44 onwards?

Sergey · Post by **Sergey** » 01 Oct 2006 20:03

There were 2 mass deportations in Estonia in 1941 and 1949.

Let's look at official site of Estonian ministry of Foreign Affairs.

http://www.vm.ee/estonia/kat_509/4365.html

According to the June 13 order issued from Moscow, a total of 11,102 people were to have been deported from Estonia. However, all those persons were not captured then. According to the Estonian Repressed Persons Records Bureau, a total of 9,254 people were exiled from Estonia during June 14-17, 1941.
...
In the course of the operation that began on March 25, 1949, over 20,000 people – nearly 3 per cent of the 1945 Estonian population – were seized in a few days and dispatched to remote areas of Siberia. The exact number of deportees in March 1949 is still not clear today; the numbers used fluctuate between 20,000 and 22,000. The deportation was demanded by the Communist Party in order to "eliminate the kulaks as a class" and to complete collectivization.
...
In addition to the March deportation of 1949, the Soviet occupants carried out smaller deportations as well. In August 1945, persons of German nationality, a total of 342 people were rounded up from various parts of Estonia and taken to Perm oblast.

So a number of deported from Estonia was about 30-32 thousands. It is a very big number for small Estonia.

KalaVelka · Post by **KalaVelka** » 01 Oct 2006 20:42

I promised to the mod, that this will not turn up as a flame war by my side but maybe you could tell us in constructive way more about these "finnish tyrants" operating around stalingrad

If the moderator feels like locking this one down, I thank you guys from the numbers I got.

David Thompson · Post by **David Thompson** » 01 Oct 2006 22:39

An unsourced and insulting opinion post from Yuri was deleted by this moderator -- DT.

Yuri -- Our readers come to the forum for sourced information, not nationalistic agitprop or some reader's ill-formed notions. Please read the forum and section rules before posting:

H&WC Section Rules
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=53962

WalterS · Post by **WalterS** » 02 Oct 2006 14:47

Approximately 4,500 Jews lived in Estonia before the beginning of World War II, half of them in Tallin, the capital of the country. Estonia was absorbed by the Soviet Union in 1940 as a result of the Nazi-Soviet agreement that also partitioned Poland. Ten days before the German invasion of the Soviet Union approximately ten thousand Estonians, including some 500 Jews, were deported to Siberia. Most of the remaining Jews fled their country ahead of the Nazi invasion, mainly to Holland, Sweden and Finland. Approximately 1,000 Jews remained in Estonia under German rule.

Hundreds of Jewish youths sixteen and over and men were arrested and murdered at the beginning of the Nazi occupation. The remaining men, women and children were sent to perform forced labor and were eventually incarcerated at the Hark labor camp near Tallin. Soon after, by January 1942, the rest of the Jews including women and children were executed by the Einsatzgruppen and the Estonian Omakaitse. According to the Einsatzgruppen report, 936 Jews had been killed by that date.

http://www.holocaust-history.org/questi ... onia.shtml

This fact was reported to the participants of the Jan 42 Wannsee conference as reflected in the notes:

Estonia - free of Jews

http://www.prorev.com/wannsee.htm

Later in 1942, Jews from other parts of Europe were shipped to Estonia and dispersed to 20 forced labor camps. Most of them were worked to death.

http://www.holocaust-history.org/questi ... onia.shtml

michael mills · Post by **michael mills** » 03 Oct 2006 02:42

The issue raised by Kalavelka was this:

So the question is did the estonian people suffer more in the CCCP time or under the Third Reich?

The defining words are "Estonian people". Accordingly, acts committed by the German occupiers on Estonian territory against ethnic groups other than Estonians, eg Jews living in Estonia or deported there during the German occupation, perhaps also against ethnic Russians, are irrelevant to this discussion.

The basis for this discussion should be the number of ethnic Estonians who suffered under Soviet rule compared with the number of ethnic Estonians who suffered under the German occupation, and the reasons for their suffering.

Another key issue is the attitude of the Estonian people to the members of their nation who suffered under each occupation.

For example, it is likely that the German occupiers repressed ethnic Estonians who were Communists and had collaborated with the preceding Soviet regime. How did the mass of the Estonian people view such repressions? Did they equate them with the persecution of a certain number of ethnic Estonians by the Soviet regime? Or did they regard those repressions as just punishment of "traitors" who had collaborated with the Soviet regime, and therefore quite different from the preceding (and following) Soviet repression?

Hw

WalterS · Post by **WalterS** » 03 Oct 2006 15:49

I believe that Jews living in Estonia qualify as "Estonian people" for purposes of this discussion.

Animal · Post by **Animal** » 06 Nov 2006 09:49

WalterS wrote: Most of the remaining Jews fled their country ahead of the Nazi invasion, mainly to Holland, Sweden and Finland.

Holland? Considering that Holland was occupied by the very people the Jews were trying to get away from, I'd say that's not all too likely.

Jacob Peters · Post by **Jacob Peters** » 26 Dec 2006 00:14

"A total of 34,250 Latvians, almost 60,000 Estonians and 75,000 Lithuanians were murdered or deported."

This is unsubstantiated and is derived from a faulty source. Montefiore's characterization of the famine has been thoroughly refuted by several scholarly sources. It does not appear that Montefiore himself has credentials in history. Of course, you have no real arguments or analysis as much of what you post consists of pseudo demographics. The archives show the following:
18 thousand, Lithuania
17 thousand, Latvia
10 thousand, Estonia
http://www.memo.ru/history/deport/add1.htm#_VPID_44

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Estonia, Stalin and Hitler

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