Atrocities of 12. SS-Panzer-Division "Hitlerjugend"

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Marcus
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Re: Canadian Orders "Take No Prisoners"

Post by Marcus » 13 Jul 2008 10:13

A post by Penn44 discussing another poster instead of the topic at hand was removed following numerous previous warnings.

/Marcus

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Re: Canadian Orders "Take No Prisoners"

Post by Penn44 » 13 Jul 2008 16:05

Please allow me to rephrase the question:

How does a high-performance aircraft, traveling at speeds far exceeding that of a person traveling on foot, "chase" someone down a road?

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Re: Canadian Orders "Take No Prisoners"

Post by David Thompson » 13 Jul 2008 16:22

How does a high-performance aircraft, traveling at speeds far exceeding that of a person traveling on foot, "chase" someone down a road?

You've made the same point several times, Penn44. Let's move on.

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Re: Canadian Orders "Take No Prisoners"

Post by Scharf » 13 Jul 2008 17:01

I am not sure, did I understand Penn's question correctly, but aircraft has hunted soldiers and civilians as long as there has been military aircraft.
Because Penn always likes sources, I give one: Finnish book, Homefront 1939-1945
There is examples where russians chase loose person(s). Even by bombers.
I have plenty of other sources from Finland, so that's not a problem.

I can't say about canadiens :|

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Re: Canadian Orders "Take No Prisoners"

Post by Penn44 » 13 Jul 2008 21:46

Scharf wrote:I am not sure, did I understand Penn's question correctly, but aircraft has hunted soldiers and civilians as long as there has been military aircraft.
Because Penn always likes sources, I give one: Finnish book, Homefront 1939-1945
There is examples where russians chase loose person(s). Even by bombers.
I have plenty of other sources from Finland, so that's not a problem.

I can't say about canadiens :|

Scharf


In English, the word "chase" generally means to pursue as in follow behind the person whom you are chasing, and has the sense of following that person for some measure of time. Perhaps the Nazi Meyer's original German meant something other than "chase," but it was lost in translation.

On account of the speed of a high-performance aircraft, its "chase" of a dismounted person on the ground would be relatively short before it would have to turn around, and make another pass on the individual. One would have to question how many times a pilot would want to do this for the sake of a single individual or small group of persons because the more passes he makes, the more time he gives enemy gunners on the ground time to acquire him as a target, and possibly kill him.

The Nazi Meyer infers that the chasing of French civilians was intentional. Given the attacking aircraft's low altitude and high approach speed, coupled with the terrain, I doubt the pilot had more than a moment or two to visually acquire a ground target, decide whether to engage it, and then to engage it. Under such conditions, the probably of making target recognition mistakes increases significantly, and that the likelihood that the pilot knew he was engaging a civilian extremely low.

Was the Nazi Meyer attempting to paint an image of Allied aircraft chasing fleeing French civilians ala the famous cropduster chasing Cary Grant scene in Hitchcock's North by Northwest? If so, there are numerous differences to consider in the two scenarios. There terrain in Normandy is a little different than the open, flat farmland in which Cary Grant was "chased," and the Allied high-performance aircraft a little faster and less maneuverable than the cropduster. The cropduster also doesn't have to concern itself with ground fire although running into trucks are a hazard.

A high-performance ground attack aircraft is not like a sniper rifle designed to engage solitary individuals. They are designed to engage point and area targets of appropriate military value. Likewise, I am sure you can use a tank main gun and round to dispatch a solitary individual, but it is not the most cost-effective use of military resources. Although Allied ground attack aircraft could have "chased" French civilians, militarily, it does not make sense. The Nazi Meyer does not give an indication how many of these alleged "chases" occurred, but if they did, they were probably quite rare. If they were rare one wonders why Nazi Meyer even mentions them. As these alleged Allied aircraft "chases" of French civilians had nothing to do with how Canadians treated POWs, one also wonders why anyone would mention it within this thread? I would suggest for the very same reason as Nazi Meyer's.

Scharf, you state that there are plenty of examples of Soviet aircraft, to include bombers, chasing "loose" Finnish civilians? Are there many Finnish examples of UFO abductions? I assume there are. Does their mere presence make these abductions real?

I ask for sources because sources are good, if they are accurate.

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Re: Canadian Orders "Take No Prisoners"

Post by Penn44 » 14 Jul 2008 08:23

David Thompson wrote:This strafing tangent is off-topic, and I'm getting annoyed at you, Penn44, for unnecessarily personalizing this digression from the subject under discussion. Even if the issue was whether allied pilots deliberately strafed civilians -- which in this thread it isn't -- quibbling over the details of a translated description adds nothing to the discussion, nor does it tend toward a resolution of the issue being discussed. Furthermore, invidious references to "the Nazi Meyer" and "Finnish examples of UFO abductions" fall well below the standards our readers expect of this forum.

Further off-topic posts will be deleted.


Please note that this thread on alleged Canadian orders to kill German prisoners contains one major digression containing two points - Allied pilots were ordered to attack German medical facilities and transport and that Allied aircraft "chased" French refugees. Please note I did not start this digression, although I challenged it, and challenged it because it was false and an apology for the Waffen SS.

First off, pardon me if I don't bow down to accept as Divine truth every self-vindicating, Tu quoque claim made by an SS officer or Waffen SS fan club member, which by the way, is the default argumentation standard of that particular clique within this forum. Although these claims have long been discredited, they still persist, and this thread is yet another indication of it. Hopefully, this forum won't deteriorate into an unchallenged showcase for Waffen SS apologetics.

Second, my use of the rhetorical device, "the Nazi Meyer" had a quasi-Shakespearean stylistic flourish about it, ala Marc Anthony's funeral eulogy in Julius Caesar. My repeated use of it serves to bring the reader back again and again to my rejection of the said SS officer as reliable reporter of historical truth. It was also a play on the Nazi use of "Jew Suess."

Scharf wrote:8O 8O 8O
Sry David, but I have to say that man is incredible, I mean Penn. I know my aircraft-post was off-topic, but I don't get this. First man asks sources, and then sources mean nothing.( ufo-abductions etc :cry: )
I take this a little bit personally, as a finn....finnish sources are not accurate. :? :? :?
But it is so easy to deny all this, like aircraft hunting civilians, when there has been no modern war in home country. …Scharf


Yes, I am incredible in more ways than one. Having a source is good, but not all sources are equal. Unfortunately my comment regarding "UFO abductions" was evidently lost on some. To reiterate, my point is just because someone claims something happens does not make it so. To accept every story (of any sort) as true merely because it is claimed is pure foolishness regardless of the nationality of said story teller regardless of whether that country has experienced a so-called "modern war" within it borders. Having participated in a war myself I dismiss your claim with relative ease.

As was discussed before (I believe within this very forum), in high stress situations, such as in warfare, some individuals will personalize what really are unpersonalized attacks upon them. For example, some persons will conceive that during a strafing attack the attacking pilot was after them personally when the said pilot was merely strafing what was to him anonymous ground targets.

Is it "quibbling," or is analysis? One man's quibbling is another man's analysis. Although I desire not to quibble about quibbling or to analyze analysis, I would reinterate again this forum would benefit if it didn't accept at face value every claim made by some GI, Tommy, Landser, or refugee. Most such claims fall apart quickly when subjected to appropriate analysis (or qibbling).

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Re: Canadian Orders "Take No Prisoners"

Post by stukazoo » 14 Jul 2008 11:27

Penn44 wrote:
Please note that this thread on alleged Canadian orders to kill German prisoners contains one major digression containing two points - Allied pilots were ordered to attack German medical facilities and transport and that Allied aircraft "chased" French refugees. Please note I did not start this digression, although I challenged it, and challenged it because it was false and an apology for the Waffen SS.

That was my addition and I bought it up because it seemed relevant to the flow of the thread. The report which contained attacks on the citizens of Caen (not refugees!) was a rebuff for your earlier comment, which with hindsight, it would have been better to ignore (as you did with my suggestion to read the sourced text).

First off, pardon me if I don't bow down to accept as Divine truth every self-vindicating, Tu quoque claim made by an SS officer or Waffen SS fan club member, which by the way, is the default argumentation standard of that particular clique within this forum. Although these claims have long been discredited, they still persist, and this thread is yet another indication of it. Hopefully, this forum won't deteriorate into an unchallenged showcase for Waffen SS apologetics.

Nice tone. I suppose you would have us all accept the Allied 'truths' and hang the lot of them?

Second, my use of the rhetorical device, "the Nazi Meyer" had a quasi-Shakespearean stylistic flourish about it, ala Marc Anthony's funeral eulogy in Julius Caesar. My repeated use of it serves to bring the reader back again and again to my rejection of the said SS officer as reliable reporter of historical truth. It was also a play on the Nazi use of "Jew Suess."

Yes, I am incredible in more ways than one. Having a source is good, but not all sources are equal. Unfortunately my comment regarding "UFO abductions" was evidently lost on some. To reiterate, my point is just because someone claims something happens does not make it so. To accept every story (of any sort) as true merely because it is claimed is pure foolishness regardless of the nationality of said story teller regardless of whether that country has experienced a so-called "modern war" within it borders. Having participated in a war myself I dismiss your claim with relative ease.

Having participated in a war, you ought to know better!

As was discussed before (I believe within this very forum), in high stress situations, such as in warfare, some individuals will personalize what really are unpersonalized attacks upon them. For example, some persons will conceive that during a strafing attack the attacking pilot was after them personally when the said pilot was merely strafing what was to him anonymous ground targets.

Is it "quibbling," or is analysis? One man's quibbling is another man's analysis. Although I desire not to quibble about quibbling or to analyze analysis, I would reinterate again this forum would benefit if it didn't accept at face value every claim made by some GI, Tommy, Landser, or refugee. Most such claims fall apart quickly when subjected to appropriate analysis (or qibbling).

I agree, one shouldn't accept all reports. The one quoted however was an official report to the divisional commander.

Penn44

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Apologies for taking this thread off on a tangent...

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Re: Canadian Orders "Take No Prisoners"

Post by Penn44 » 14 Jul 2008 12:57

stukazoo wrote:
Penn44 wrote:First off, pardon me if I don't bow down to accept as Divine truth every self-vindicating, Tu quoque claim made by an SS officer or Waffen SS fan club member, which by the way, is the default argumentation standard of that particular clique within this forum. Although these claims have long been discredited, they still persist, and this thread is yet another indication of it. Hopefully, this forum won't deteriorate into an unchallenged showcase for Waffen SS apologetics.

Nice tone. I suppose you would have us all accept the Allied 'truths' and hang the lot of them?


One wonders what you mean by "Allied truths."

I refrain from responding to other question regarding "hang the lot of them" as it slides too far away from the original question of this thread.

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Re: Atrocities of 12. SS-Panzer-Division "Hitlerjugend"

Post by David Thompson » 15 Jul 2008 01:31

Here's an example of a 12th SS Panzer Division ambulance-strafing story that turned out to be bogus. Use the scroll part to the right of the illustrations to read the full page. This is part 1 of 6 parts:
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Re: Atrocities of 12. SS-Panzer-Division "Hitlerjugend"

Post by David Thompson » 15 Jul 2008 01:33

Part 2:
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Re: Atrocities of 12. SS-Panzer-Division "Hitlerjugend"

Post by David Thompson » 15 Jul 2008 01:34

Part 3:
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Re: Atrocities of 12. SS-Panzer-Division "Hitlerjugend"

Post by David Thompson » 15 Jul 2008 01:35

Part 4:
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Re: Atrocities of 12. SS-Panzer-Division "Hitlerjugend"

Post by David Thompson » 15 Jul 2008 01:37

Part 5:
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Re: Atrocities of 12. SS-Panzer-Division "Hitlerjugend"

Post by David Thompson » 15 Jul 2008 01:38

Part 6 (final):
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Re: Atrocities of 12. SS-Panzer-Division "Hitlerjugend"

Post by stukazoo » 15 Jul 2008 12:50

Thanks for posting these David. Nice role models for the Hitlerjugend eh?

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