Belgian artillery in 1940

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YAN
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Post by YAN » 28 Oct 2006 15:51

I Forgot to mention if someone had any info on the German 105mm leFH 16. Thanx again Yan.

adolpheit
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Post by adolpheit » 28 Oct 2006 17:22

Gun model : Rheinmetall 105mm light field howitzer QF M. 1916
German designation : 10,cm leichte Feldhaubitze 16
Calibre : 105mm L/22
Weight in action : 1380 kg
Weight in marching order : 2300 kg
Barrel lenght : 2.310 m
Number of barrel grooves : 32
Height of line of fire : 1032 mm
Shield height : 1.77 m
Shield thickness : 4 mm
Shell :
l.F.H.Gr. : 15.7 kg - bursting charge : 2 kg
H.Gr. 15 : 15.7 kg - bursting charge : 1.4 kg
Shrapnel :
F.H. Gr. 05 : 15.89 kg - 368 balls x 10 g
H.Schr. 16 : 15.89 kg - 448 steel balls x 11 g
Muzzle velocity : 400 m/s
Max. range : 6000m/8400 m
C-Geschoss
Weight : 15.71 kg - bursting charge : 1.5 kg
Muzzle velocity : 427 m/s
Max. range : 9700 m
Elevation : + 40° / - 10°
Traversing angle :
Transport : drawn by six horses
Remarks : Quick firing light field howitzer. It fired the same ammunition of light Field Howitzer M 1898/1909, but in 1917 a new shell was introduced, the C-shell. In order to facilitate the production of German artillery, this howitzer and the 77mm M. 1916 received in optics, laying mechanism and so on, as many identical parts as possible.

Source of the pictures : F.KOSAR, Artillerie im 20. Jahrhundert, Bonn, Bernard & Graefe Verlag

I have other pictures, but I don't remember the source.
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MickABBL
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Post by MickABBL » 28 Oct 2006 22:20

Hello Ardee, I will going to the Royal belgiab army Muséeum this week with Résistant, We will take A LOT of pictures to you; have you some preference?

Brossel, could you give us?

More information, by ABBL forum

regards
Mick

@ Brossel: on va aux MRA cette fin de semain, jeudi probablement, serais-tu interressé?

si tu as un stick USB ou un pc portable, avertsi moi, que je prenne soit mon stick USB soit mon pc que je te transfert les plan du 47mm,

retour à l'adresse initiale

cordialement

Mick

Ardee
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Post by Ardee » 01 Nov 2006 19:20

Thank you! I hope this is not too late to catch you before your trip. I am always interested in pictures (or scale drawings) of WWII weapons themselves and of the weapons in use (does the museum have dioramas or large photo displays?). I do not have a clear profile picture of a Belgian rifle -- Lebel? with the VB grenade launcher, nor a good, clear one of it in use. I have a photo of the 34A MP (aka Schmeisser 28II), but none of it in Belgian hands. Of artillery -- I lack good profile views of just about everything! Again, thanks for thinking of me!

Brossel
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Post by Brossel » 03 Nov 2006 22:50

Yan if you are looking for informations about the belgian army in 1940 for a game(or an addon?), could you send me a PM please :wink: ...

For the Van Deuren mortar 70/58mm, it's probably a trench mortar from WW1 developped in 1915. I don't know whether it was still in use in 1940. (source: http://canonspgmww1guns.canalblog.com/a ... 08828.html )

Image


Perhaps a quick summary of the main belgian guns in use in 1940:

- 47 mm anti-tank gun FRC M31

It was the standard AT gun of the belgian army. It was made by the FRC (Fonderie Royal de Canons, Liège). Around 750 were in service in 1940. It could fire both HE and AT shells. The same gun was placed in the belgian AT bunkers and it was also fitted on the T13 (B1/B2/B3) tanks.
It was a good AT gun (some veterans who used it said it was able to penetrate a PzKW IV on one side and get out of it from the other), only outclassed by the french 47mm AT. Its drawbacks were the time needed to "undeploy" (sorry I don't know how to say that in English) the gun when you wanted to move from your position (not very practical when you need to move quickly while under fire) and its fragile optical sight.
There is a surviving example at the Royal Army Museum in Brussels.

Rate of fire: 5 shots/min.

*AT shell:

weight: 1kg 550
velocity: 675 m/s
penetration: 40mm at 600m

Penetration at 60 degrees (from hungarian test data ,found somewhere on this forum) at:
100m: 51mm
500m: 44mm
1000m: 37mm

* HE shell:

weight: 1kg 655
velocity: 450 m/s
range: 3000 m

Image
Image

- 75 mm GP III

At the end of WW1, Belgium got a lot of 77mmFK16 from Germany as war reparation. The tubes were relined in 75 mm by the belgian steel company Cockerill. The 75 mm GPIII (Grande Portée - Long range) was born.
318 of these guns were delivered to the belgian army before 1940.
There is a surviving example at the Royal Army Museum in Brussels.

Shell's weight: 6 kg 125
Velocity: 579 m/s
Max. range: 11 000 m
Rate of fire: 6 - 12 shots/min.

Image

- 75 mm TR gun (Krupp Model 1905)

348 of these guns were bought by the Belgians in 1907. They were the only field guns within the belgian army when WW1 broke out in 1914.
The 75 mm TR (Tir Rapide - Quick Fire) were still in service in 1940. I don't know how many exactly but 154 were still in active service with the Germans in 1944 under the name of "7,5 FK 235 (b)" (from data found on this forum).
There is a surviving example at the Royal Army Museum in Brussels.

Shell's weight: 6 kg 520
Velocity: 540 m/s
Max. range: 9900 m
Rate of fire: 6 - 12 shots/min.

Image

- 105 mm GP

I almost have nothing on that one (no picture) except that it was probably a former WW1 german 105mm LeFH 16 (and probably modified by the FRC after WW1), as said by "The Edge" above in this topic. But it was in significant quantity within the belgian army in 1940. The captured guns were used by the germans under the name of "10,5 lFH 327(b)".

Max range: 11 000m

- 76 mm FRC mortar/infantry gun

198 were in service within the belgian army in 1940. They were used as mortar but they were also able to fire directly.
There is a surviving example at the Royal Army Museum in Brussels (see picture above in this topic).


Shell's weight: 4 kg 640
Velocity: 160 m/s
Max. range: 2200 m

Image

- 120 mm FRC M 1931

It was a excellent gun produced jointly by the FRC and Cockerill. It was adopted in 1934 by the belgian army and 24 (?) were in service in 1940. The pieces captured by the Germans were used on the Atlantic Wall as coastal artillery under the name of "12 cm K. 370 (b)".
There is a surviving example at the Royal Army Museum in Brussels.

Max. range: 17 500 m

Image

- 75 mm Bofors M 1934 mountain gun

20 were bought from Bofor for the "Chasseurs Ardennais". Unlinke the other Bofors mountain guns, it could not be parted. Instead the end of the trail could be flipped up for towing, to make the vehicle shorter and easier to manoeuvre. This version used steel disc wheels with solid rubber tyres instead of the lighter steel-rimmed wooden spoked wheels on the earlier models of Bofors mountain guns. The Germans used it under the name of "7,5 Geb. Kan. 228 (b)"

Shell's weight: 6 kg 500
Velocity: 500 m/s
Max. range: 9300 m

Image


Ok, I'll stop here. :?
If some one wants to add or to correct something, feel free... :wink:

YAN
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Post by YAN » 04 Nov 2006 16:34

Hi Brossel, as you guess Iam pretty new to the forum and I dont know what a PM is, I sorry, but if you cant explain I will try and send the PM. Thanks for your help Yan.

Brossel
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Post by Brossel » 04 Nov 2006 16:46

PM= Private Message

Just click on the little envelope on the lower left of the box... :wink:

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David Lehmann
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Post by David Lehmann » 04 Nov 2006 18:07

Hello,

About the Belgian 47mm AT gun, it had roughly the same penetration capacities/performances than the French 47mm SA35 gun used in the B1bis, Renault D2 second series, Renault ACG-1 and Somua S35. It means it could neutralize all the German tanks at 600 meters if the angle of impact was good enough.

The shells used in the French 47mm SA35 L/32 were:

Obus de rupture Mle1935 (APC) - in German service : Pzgr 176(f) -
Caliber: 47x193R mm
Weight of projectile: 1.620 kg (sometimes 1.625 kg is indicated)
Length of projectile: 145mm (length of the case : 193mm and total length of the shell : 325mm)
MV = 660 m/s (sometimes 680 m/s is indicated)

Obus explosif Mle1932 (HE) - in German service : Sprgr 175(f) -
Caliber: 47x193R mm
Weight of projectile: 1.410 kg (142g explosive)
Length of projectile: 183mm
MV = 590 m/s

The 47mm SA37 AT gun was the most powerful AT gun on the May-June 1940 theater of battle and the Czech 47mm L/43.4 kanon PUV vz.36 = 4.7cm PaK36 (t) had slightly lower performance. Both of them were superior to the Belgian AT gun.

Kinetic Energy (1/2.m.v^2) (J)
- French 47mm APC projectile for the 47mm SA35 tank gun: 352,836 J (calculated with 660 m/s)
- Belgian 47mm AP projectile for the 47mm FRC: 353,109 J
- Czech / German APC projectile for the 4.7cm PaK36(t) AT gun: 504,507 J
- French 47mm APCBC projectile for the 47mm SA37 AT gun: 630,875 J

I would be interested if someone had data indicating that the Germans used the Belgian AT gun in May-June 1940 as booty weapon against allied AFVs.

I know for sure that the 47mm SA37 has been used against French tanks by the Germans. The Germans indicate that 1,226 shells were fired with these booty guns during the battle of France. General Heinz Guderian himself in his memories ("Achtung Panzer !") indicates that he led the fire of a captured French 47mm AT gun against a Renault B1bis.

Regards,

David

YAN
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Post by YAN » 06 Nov 2006 10:58

Thanks Brosel I will send one as soon as I sort out some questions for you, Dave did the Hungarians also use the 47mm AT to ?, and are the stats the same, and did the Belgians use any of there field artillery in the AT role and provide them with AP shells. Thanx Yan.

Brossel
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Post by Brossel » 10 Nov 2006 19:50

I do'nt know wether the Hungarians used the 47mm or not. I think they just tested it. The data came from a post on this forum (ecxept the 1st one: 40mm at 600m, that one comes from a publication of the Royal military Museum I think: "Les unités de cavalerie belge durant la campagne des 18 jours, deuxième partie"). Mayby some one from there can confirm that.

For the field artillery: I don't think they used AP shells but they probably shot at tanks anyway. For exemple, there is an incident in which a belgian 75mm crew fired directly at a belgian ACG1, thinking it was a german tank. But fortunatly they missed.


Edit: Ooops I just remarked that the question was for David :roll: , sorry... :(

YAN
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Post by YAN » 17 Nov 2006 15:49

Talking about the Hungarians, I cant find a picture of the 40mm 40.M ATG any where. Yan.

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The Edge
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Post by The Edge » 11 Jan 2007 14:41

Unfortunately, some of pictures I have as "40M" turned to be Soviet 45mm model. I'm sending only sure photo of Hungarian ATG I have from Belgrade Military Museum (plus its tablet). I'll try to take more photos at my next visit (this month - if weather don't preclude me).

Cheers, Edge
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YAN
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Post by YAN » 11 Jan 2007 15:55

My thanks to the edge, Yan.

Carl Schwamberger
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Post by Carl Schwamberger » 12 Jan 2007 05:19

From Brossel: "For the field artillery: I don't think they used AP shells but they probably shot at tanks anyway"

They definitly shot at tanks. The memoirs of artillerymen reglarly include descriptions of direct fire on tanks & other AFV. I dont know if purpose built antitank projectiles were provided to the Belgian artillery of 1940, but they would have had a very similar projectile. Before WWI a fuze for piercing concrete or masonry was designed. It was a hardened alloy cap with a delay action of several tenths of a second. In the US we refered to this as a concrete piercing fuze. Fitted to a common HE projectile these are quite usefull for attacking buildings as well as bunkers, so when WWII begain most armys had a percentage of these in their basic artillery ammunition allotment. Both the Germans & French caused a few of these to be distributed in the basic ammo load of each cannon battery for AT purposes. It is possible the Belgians did the same.

Even without those or specific AT projectiles common HE ammo with impact fuzes proved fairly effective vs the tanks of 1940. The French found their 75 quite capable of penetrating the armor of the German MkI MkII & even the MkIV of 1940 with common HE at ranges under 500 meters.

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The Edge
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Post by The Edge » 14 Jan 2007 16:21

Another preserved GP III, also from Belgrade Military Museum.

(Notice damaged barrel)
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