Nazi v Soviet terror in Poland

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Davey Boy
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Nazi v Soviet terror in Poland

Post by Davey Boy » 22 Nov 2002 13:45

Some people here have wondered in the past who behaved worse in Poland, the Nazis or the Soviets. Claims have been made that the Soviets were worse. Well, here's a little story about a town in southeastern Poland which had to endure both Nazi and Soviet occupation. It gives a good insight into what the occupiers got up to.

http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/w/x/w ... zch10.html

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chalutzim
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Thanks

Post by chalutzim » 24 Nov 2002 19:15

Hetman, thanks for share it.

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Tanker
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Post by Tanker » 25 Nov 2002 10:30

My "vote" goes for the Soviets because the Comunists stayed for 50 years,the Nazis for "just" 6.

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Post by Davey Boy » 25 Nov 2002 12:22

Tanker wrote:My "vote" goes for the Soviets because the Comunists stayed for 50 years,the Nazis for "just" 6.



But just imagine if the Nazis had stayed in Poland for 50 years.

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Scott Smith
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Post by Scott Smith » 25 Nov 2002 19:17

HETMAN wrote:
Tanker wrote:My "vote" goes for the Soviets because the Comunists stayed for 50 years,the Nazis for "just" 6.

But just imagine if the Nazis had stayed in Poland for 50 years.

Just imagine if the war had lasted for 50 years.
:wink:

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chalutzim
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Post by chalutzim » 25 Nov 2002 19:25

Scott Smith wrote:
HETMAN wrote:
Tanker wrote:My "vote" goes for the Soviets because the Comunists stayed for 50 years,the Nazis for "just" 6.

But just imagine if the Nazis had stayed in Poland for 50 years.

Just imagine if the war had lasted for 50 years.
:wink:


Scott, if by 1945 Germany was completely defeated, bankrupted and demoralized, I think you are referring to the other belligerents, right? :?

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Roberto
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Post by Roberto » 25 Nov 2002 19:32

Scott Smith wrote:
HETMAN wrote:
Tanker wrote:My "vote" goes for the Soviets because the Comunists stayed for 50 years,the Nazis for "just" 6.

But just imagine if the Nazis had stayed in Poland for 50 years.

Just imagine if the war had lasted for 50 years.
:wink:



I’m not so sure which would have been worse for the Poles.

[…]As for the Poles and Ukrainians, Frank's attitude was clear. They were to be permitted to work for the German economy as long as the war emergency continued. Once the war was won, he told the District Standortfuehrung and Political Leaders at a conference at Cracow on 14 January '1944 :
"* * * then, for all I care, mincemeat [Hackfleisch] can be made of the Poles and the Ukrainians and all the others who run around here-it does not matter what happens." (2233-BB-PS)[…]


Source of quote:

http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/Frank.htm

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Scott Smith
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Post by Scott Smith » 25 Nov 2002 22:33

chalutzim wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:
HETMAN wrote:
Tanker wrote:My "vote" goes for the Soviets because the Comunists stayed for 50 years,the Nazis for "just" 6.

But just imagine if the Nazis had stayed in Poland for 50 years.

Just imagine if the war had lasted for 50 years.
:wink:

Scott, if by 1945 Germany was completely defeated, bankrupted and demoralized, I think you are referring to the other belligerents, right? :?

I meant that in wartime brutality is amplified and compressed, regardless of who is the hostile occupier. A brutal occupation in peacetime is not likely to be as brutal as in wartime. I remember in 1981 that I was thrilled to see the Poles standing-up to the Communists with their water cannon. But in wartime it would not be water cannon and rubber-bullets I don't think. Also, the world is different today and we see atrocities via satellite, which perhaps has a sobering effect.
:)
Last edited by Scott Smith on 26 Nov 2002 09:20, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by Caldric » 25 Nov 2002 22:36

Tanker wrote:My "vote" goes for the Soviets because the Comunists stayed for 50 years,the Nazis for "just" 6.


I think the Nazi's killed more in 6 years then all other non-natural deaths in the 50 years afterwards. 8O

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Scott Smith
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Post by Scott Smith » 25 Nov 2002 22:39

Caldric wrote:
Tanker wrote:My "vote" goes for the Soviets because the Comunists stayed for 50 years,the Nazis for "just" 6.

I think the Nazi's killed more in 6 years then all other non-natural deaths in the 50 years afterwards. 8O

Yeah but that was in wartime and there were about sixty million or so killed in WWII. That is hard to top in peacetime but the Soviets and Red Chinese tried.
:wink:

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Post by Davey Boy » 26 Nov 2002 05:52

Scott,


You're wrong.

The Nazis and Soviets had completely different goals in Poland. Both would do everything in their power to achieve these goals, and both were vicious, but....

Soviet goals included getting rid of the Polish ruling class (the Germans helped them out in this) and setting up a socialist Poland with new borders. They achieved this.

Nazi goals were a lot different. They wanted to destroy Polish culture completely and either enslave, deport, kill or Germanize the Poles. I'm sure they would've achieved this in 50 years.

Hance my comment "imagine if the Nazis had stayed in Poland for 50 years".

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Post by Davey Boy » 26 Nov 2002 05:58

P.S.

The Soviets were just as ruthless in the immediate post war years as during the war. In fact, they kept on going with their campaign against the Polish "capitalists" and "fascists" until they were all gone.

There's nothing to suggest that Germany wouldn't have done the same. If you do have any evidence to the contrary then I would like to see it. In the meantime, we have to assume that the Nazi plans for Poland (well documented and supported by quotes from key Nazi men) would've been carried out to the letter even after the war had ended.

So, like I said, you're wrong.

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Post by michael mills » 26 Nov 2002 10:52

Hetman wrote:

There's nothing to suggest that Germany wouldn't have done the same. If you do have any evidence to the contrary then I would like to see it. In the meantime, we have to assume that the Nazi plans for Poland (well documented and supported by quotes from key Nazi men) would've been carried out to the letter even after the war had ended.


There were quite marked differences between German agencies as to the future treatment of the ethnic Polish population.

The Reichskommissariat fuer die Festigung deutschen Volkstums, one of Himmler's agencies, produced a plan under which part of the population of the Generalgouvernement was to be germanised, and the remainder relocated east of the Urals in a rump Russian state.

Rosenberg's Ministry for the Occupied Eastern Territories, by contrast, criticised the relocation proposal on the basis that it would strengthen the Slav element in Siberia, constituting a future danger to German hegemony. As an alternative, it proposed encouraging the ungermanisable Poles to emigrate to Brazil, which had previously been a prominent destination for Polish emigrants, and where there was already a sizable Polish community, and which had unlimited land for agricultural settlement.

Who can tell which of those two proposals would have won the day if Germany had not been defeated, and had remained in control of Poland. In a post-war situation Germany would have faced various constraints that would have frustrated even the most radical demographic engineer.

So, if German rule in Poland had lasted 50 years, it is possible that Hetman would today be a good German, perhaps even a Nazi heavy (assuming that Nazism would have lasted that long, which is unlikely).

Alternatively, he might now be a drunk vegetating in a miserable village in West Siberia. On a more positive note, he might now be living in sunny Brazil, chasing dusky senhoritas and hobnobbing with Chalutzim.

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Roberto
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Post by Roberto » 26 Nov 2002 11:47

michael mills wrote:Rosenberg's Ministry for the Occupied Eastern Territories, by contrast, criticised the relocation proposal on the basis that it would strengthen the Slav element in Siberia, constituting a future danger to German hegemony. As an alternative, it proposed encouraging the ungermanisable Poles to emigrate to Brazil, which had previously been a prominent destination for Polish emigrants, and where there was already a sizable Polish community, and which had unlimited land for agricultural settlement.


It used to be a comment on the Generalplan Ost by Mr. Wetzel.

Now it's "Rosenberg's Ministry for the Occupied Eastern Territories". :lol:

michael mills wrote:Who can tell which of those two proposals would have won the day if Germany had not been defeated, and had remained in control of Poland.


Calling a critical comment by Mr. Wetzel a "proposal" is a bit generous, isn't it?

michael mills wrote:In a post-war situation Germany would have faced various constraints that would have frustrated even the most radical demographic engineer.


Such as?

michael mills wrote:So, if German rule in Poland had lasted 50 years, it is possible that Hetman would today be a good German, perhaps even a Nazi heavy (assuming that Nazism would have lasted that long, which is unlikely).


Or then ...

DISCUSSION OF THIERACK WITH DR. GOEBBELS ON
SEPT. 14, 1942 IN BERLIN

2. With regard to the destruction of asocial life, Dr Goebbels is of the opinion that the following groups should be exterminated: Jews and gypsies unconditionally, Poles who have to serve 3-4 -years of penal servitude, and Czechs and Germans who are sentenced to death or penal servitude for life or to security custody [Sicherungsvorwahrung] for life. The idea of exterminating them by labor is the best. For the rest however, except in the aforementioned cases, every case has to be dealt with individually. In this case, of course, Czechs and Germans have to be differently judged. There may be cases where a German sentenced to 15 years of penal servitude is not to be considered asocial, but in contrast to this a person sentenced to penal servitude up to 8 years may be.


Source of quote:

http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/annihil3.htm

[...]As for the Poles and Ukrainians, Frank's attitude was clear. They were to be permitted to work for the German economy as long as the war emergency continued. Once the war was won, he told the District Standortfuehrung and Political Leaders at a conference at Cracow on 14 January '1944 :

"* * * then, for all I care, mincemeat [Hackfleisch] can be made of the Poles and the Ukrainians and all the others who run around here-it does not matter what happens." (2233-BB-PS)[...]


Source of quote:

http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/Frank.htm

[...]Frank was appointed Chief Civil Administration Officer for occupied Polish territory and, on 12th October, 1939, was made Governor General of the occupied Polish territory. On 3rd October, 1939, he described the policy which he intended to put into effect by stating: " Poland shall be treated like a colony ; the Poles will become the slaves of the Greater German World Empire." The evidence establishes that this occupation policy was based on the complete destruction of Poland as a national entity and a ruthless exploitation of its human and economic resources for the German war effort. All opposition was crushed with the utmost harshaess. A reign of terror was instituted, backed by summary police courts which ordered such actions as the public shootings of groups of twenty to two hundred Poles and the widespread shootings of hostages The concentration camp system was introduced in the General Government by the establishment of the notorious Treblinka and Maydanek camps. As early as 6th February, 1940, Frank gave an indication of the extent of this reign of terror by his cynical comment to a newspaper reporter on von Neurath's poster announcing the execution of the Czech students: "If I wished to order that one should hang up posters about every seven Poles shot, there would not be enough forests in Poland with which to make the paper for these posters." On 30th May, 1940, Frank told a police conference that he was taking advantage of the offensive in the West which diverted the attention of the world from Poland to liquidate thousands of Poles who would be likely to resist German domination of Poland, including "the leading representatives of the Polish intelligentsia" Pursuant to these instructions the brutal A. B. action was begun under which the Security Police and SD carried out these exterminations which were only partially subjected to the restraints of legal procedure. On 2nd October 1943, Frank issued a decree under which any non-Germans hindering German construction in the General Government were to be tried by summary courts of the Security Police and SD and sentenced to death.

The economic demands made on the General Government were far in excess of the needs of the army of occupation, and were out of all proportion to the resources of the country. The food raised in Poland was shipped to Germany on such a wide scale that the rations of the population of the occupied territories were reduced to the starvation level, and epidemics were widespread. Some steps were taken to provide for the feeding of the agricultural workers who were used to raise the crops, but the requirements of the rest of the population were disregarded. It is undoubtedly true, as argued by counsel for the defence, that some suffering in the General Government was inevitable as a result of the ravages of war and the economic confusion resulting therefrom. But the suffering was increased by a planned policy of economic exploitation.

Frank introduced the deportation of slave labourers to Germany in the very early stages of his administration. On 25th January, 1940, he indicated his intention of deporting one million labourers to Germany, suggesting on 10th May, 1940, the use of police raids to meet this quota. On 18th August, 1942, Frank reported that he had already supplied 800,000 workers for the Reich, and expected to be able to supply 140,000 more before the end of the year.[...]


Source of quote:

http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/Frank2.htm

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Post by Davey Boy » 26 Nov 2002 12:36

michael mills wrote:
So, if German rule in Poland had lasted 50 years, it is possible that Hetman would today be a good German, perhaps even a Nazi heavy (assuming that Nazism would have lasted that long, which is unlikely).

Alternatively, he might now be a drunk vegetating in a miserable village in West Siberia. On a more positive note, he might now be living in sunny Brazil, chasing dusky senhoritas and hobnobbing with Chalutzim.



Or perhaps I would've never been born at all.

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