Infantrie Regt. Nr. 150 Allenstein, Prussia - XX Armeekorps

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calaski8123
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Infantrie Regt. Nr. 150 Allenstein, Prussia - XX Armeekorps

#1

Post by calaski8123 » 11 Nov 2006, 00:43

My great grandfather was originally from Hamburg. He came to the US in 1899, at the age of 19. Before he came, he must have served some time in the Prussian Army, because I have a framed portrait of him in his uniform. I have some questions I was hoping you could help me out with:

1. What age did men usually join, 18?

2. Was it normal for a man from Hamburg to serve in a Prussian regiment from Allenstein? Why not a regiment from Hamburg?

3. What does "Ermländisches" mean?

4. What became of the 150th regiment? Was it absorbed into another regiment before/during WWI?

5. Any famous battles, leaders, etc?

6. Anyone have ANY information on the regiment other than what I have below?

I have been able to determine the following:

He is wearing the “going out dress uniform” of a rifleman. The officer’s sword and troddel, or knot, indicates that he was in the 4th company of the 1st battalion of the 150th Infantrie Regiment out of Allenstein, Prussia.

I have been told the uniform is unique to all other Prussian regiments in that it is the only one with the vertical “Brandenburg” cuffs in yellow. The B&W portrait is hand painted. The shoulder boards should actually be light blue in color. It is unclear if the artist used white by mistake or for contrast with the Prussian blue tunic.

The motto "Zur Erinnerung an Allenstein!" across the top of the portrait means: "In remembrance of Allenstein!" It is a common remembrance motto that commemorates service in a military unit. In this case, the Allenstein Regiment.

The portrait is in the original frame and is dated “FEB 5 - 1914” on the back, along with “Poe Photographic Studio - R. PYE, Prop. - 102 Main St, Hackensack, NJ”. Since he came to the US in 1899 and didn't return to Germany until after WWI, I assume the photo was taken around 1898.

Image

Image

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Peter H
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#2

Post by Peter H » 11 Nov 2006, 01:34

The Ermland region of East Prussia:

Ermland

IR 150 was part of the 37.Infantrie-Division in 1914,XX Corps,8th Army.Fought at Tannenberg,Warsaw 1914.In 1915 remained on Eastern Front serving on Narew sector,Dvinsk sector.

In mid 1916, IR 150 was detached to serve with the 91.Infantrie-Division,to counter the Russian breakthrough at Stokhod.The regiment returned to the 37th in September 1916.In December 1916 the division moved to the Western Front,Alsace.

It served in the Mulhouse sector until May 1917,then entered the Aisne sector until July.St Gobain sector(north of Soissons) from August 1917 to January 1918.Involved in March 1918 offensive south of St.Quentin;Aisne offensive May 1918.

Involved in Marne fighting July 1918.Argonne fighting September-October 1918.

Considered a first class formation by Allied intelligence but its recruitment base of Allenstein (a low density rural region)meant that many non East Prussians ended up in its rank after 1916.


calaski8123
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#3

Post by calaski8123 » 11 Nov 2006, 02:11

WOW!!! Thank you, some great info I have really been looking for.

Do you have any idea why my GGF would have served in this unit if he was from Hamburg? My knowledge of his time in Germany is brief, so I assume it is possible he could have lived there, but all his records here in America (church, marriage, death, etc) state he is from Hamburg.

Thank you so much for the information again. Where did you get that? If there is a book you can reccommend that would be appreciated.

Jim

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Peter H
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#4

Post by Peter H » 11 Nov 2006, 04:27

Hi Jim,

From the Histories of the 251 Divisions....You requested this elsewhere but I posted it here.

Hamburg was the port for emigration so he may have used that focal point as his locale.

People also moved around for jobs.Many East Prussians and Poles ended up working in the Ruhr for example.

East Prussia did manage to fulfill its recruiting quota in peacetime,but its low population base meant that many Poles,Alsace Lorrainers ended up in its ranks in 1914-18.

Normally military service started at 20 so he may have understated his age.Just guessing.Then with 2 years service you wouldn't get out until you were 22 or 23.

This link states that IR 150 was a relatively new formation,formed in April 1897.This was part of the newly raised XX Corps:

http://wiki.genealogy.net/wiki/IR_150


This link has the wartime history of IR 150 on 2 CDs for 10 Euros.However you need to read German.Check under "Prussia",World War:

http://www.military-books.de.vu/


Regards
Peter

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#5

Post by calaski8123 » 11 Nov 2006, 04:37

Hmm... well he was born in 1880 and he definately came here in 1899... that would make him 18 or 19, depending on the month.

I guess he could have served 17-19 and left as soon as he got out?

I hear what you say about Hamburg being a port... he did sail from there when he came here. However, would his marriage certificate (church, not state) say Hamburg if he only passed through there? Also, he lived with my mom when she was young until he died in 1948 and she always says he said he was from Hamburg.

Perhaps he was from Prussia, I just have nothing to that effect except this photo and on one of the family search websites, I did find a directory listing from 1898 listing him... I forget the town name, but it is in Poland now, so that would be Prussia too... Still could just be him living there while in service.

From your knowledge, are my original assumptions of his regiment correct based on the photo?

Thanks again for your help...

Jim

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Peter H
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#6

Post by Peter H » 11 Nov 2006, 04:56

Jim,

Histories of the 251 Divisions....

Regards
Peter
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#7

Post by Peter H » 11 Nov 2006, 05:05

Pages 2,3,4
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Elster
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#8

Post by Elster » 11 Nov 2006, 12:45

Hi Jim,

a part of Hamburg (Altona) was a part of Prussia. Normally the service begins with 20 years. But it was possible, as a volunteer, before he was 20 years old, his service to begin. The young men must find a regiment, what him accept. He to apply by a regiment of his choice. It was normally, to apply by many regiments. Many young mens, apply by the regiment, where her father served.

I think, possible he lived in Prussia, e.g. in Hamburg-Altona and he to apply by the prussian regiment. It was not a precondition, to be a prussian for served in a prussian regiment. It is possible, that this regiment was a family-tradition. I think he begins to early as possible, like he want to emigrate.

Regards

Elster

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#9

Post by Elster » 11 Nov 2006, 13:11

I. AK (Armee-Korps) , 87. Div., 75. Inf. Brig.

1. Ermländisches Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 150


Kommandeure
1897 von Stern
1900 Damrath
1903 Cramer

Regiments-Geschichte
31.3.1897 aus den IV. Bat der Inf.-Regt 48 u. 52 (I.) und der Gen.-Regt. 8 und 12 (II.) errichtet.

founded at 31.3.1897 from IV. Bat of Inf.-Regt 48 u. 52 (I.) and the Gen.-Regt. 8 und 12 (II.)

Standorte
1897 I. Küstrin, St. u. II. Frankfurt/Oder (I. Bat in Küstrin, Staff and II. Bat in Frankfurt/Oder)
1898 Allenstein

from: http://www.preussenweb.de/neuregiment6.htm


By the Mormons, you can get the parish register and the registrar of civil status.

Evangelische Kirche , Militärgemeinde Allenstein 1869 - 1938 , Film # 492556 ethem2
70948
70949

Book of the Regiment history:

Geschichte des 1. Ermländisches Infanterieregiment Nr.150/Herausgeber
Vereinigung der Offiziere-Verlag Sporn,Zeulenroda-1932-2 Bände-
Signatur Ac 902/P-57- u.-68- / Opitz Bücherei,Herne

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#10

Post by calaski8123 » 11 Nov 2006, 15:07

Elster,

Thank you very much for the insight. I am familiar with the pruessenweb website, but I don't read German very well. Could you translate any of what you wrote?

Could you please give some more detail regarding the info I can get via the Mormons? Are those microfische numbers you gave? The town next to me has a sattelite family history center I went to once but I didnt have much info to go on. Will the Mormon Church here in the States have this info? Please elaborate as this seems like a great source if I can actually get regiment info and registers. Where did you get that info from?

Thanks again!

Jim

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#11

Post by Elster » 11 Nov 2006, 18:19

Hi Jim,

http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Library ... et_fhc.asp

http://www.familysearch.org/

On this site, you found all informations you need. The numbers are microfilmnumbers. I found it on a site about genealogy. The source:

http://list.genealogy.net/mailman/archi ... 00008.html

But I don´t know, if are there informations about your grandfather. That is by young men, who serve their military service not probable, but is possible. The Mormons in the USA have these informations, the center of the Mormons is in the USA (Utah). In each Family History Center you get these Informations.



I. AK (Armee-Korps) , 87. Div., 75. Inf. Brig.

First (I.) Army Corps
I see in your text, you write XX. Ak, that is wrong, that is the I.AK

1. Ermländisches Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 150


Kommandeure (Commanders, Chief of Regiment))
1897 von Stern
1900 Damrath
1903 Cramer

Regiments-Geschichte
31.3.1897 aus den IV. Bat der Inf.-Regt 48 u. 52 (I.) und der Gen.-Regt. 8 und 12 (II.) errichtet.

founded at 31.3.1897 from IV. Bat of Inf.-Regt 48 u. 52 (I.) and the Gen.-Regt. 8 und 12 (II.)

Standorte (Location)
1897 I. Küstrin, St. u. II. Frankfurt/Oder (I. Bat in Küstrin, Staff and II. Bat in Frankfurt/Oder)
1898 Allenstein

Geschichte des 1. Ermländisches Infanterieregiment Nr.150/
History of the IR 150

Herausgeber (editor)
Vereinigung der Offiziere-

(publishing company) Verlag: Sporn,Zeulenroda-1932- 2 Bände (2 volumes)-

Signatur (signatory) Ac 902/P-57- u.-68- /

Library: Opitz Bücherei,Herne (Herne is a town)

Regards

Elster

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#12

Post by calaski8123 » 11 Nov 2006, 23:33

Thanks, I'll try my local Family Center on Tuesday when they are open.

Are you sure about the Armee Korps? I have found sites that say XX and the scans of the book in this post say 20th AK (XX). You are the first I have seen to write the 1st AK. Just curious.

Jim

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Peter H
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#13

Post by Peter H » 12 Nov 2006, 02:42

Jim,

XX Corps wasn't formed until 1911--hence the regiment was part of I Corps until then.

Regards
Peter

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#14

Post by bob lembke » 12 Nov 2006, 09:51

Jim;

I posted some information on your other thread, before I saw this one. You might consider posting a notice there directing posts to this one, so that we don't "get tangled up in our underwear" trying to answer these questions. It seems like a good idea to spread questions about to "catch more flies", but it can be a promlem, IMHO. Please accept this as a friendly and by no means authorative opinion.

I was impressed by the scans of 251 Divisions that Peter posted; it has more information than I imagined. A scholar of WW I that I respect (and others detest, it seems) does not seem to have a good opinion of the book.

Normally a young man would be called up in the fall of the year in which he turned 20. There were so many men about that as a practical matter about 50% of young men were never inducted, healthy men as well as the physically unfit. It is true, as posted, that there were ways for a young man to join as a volunteer at a younger age, but they were generally associated with an accomplished young man wanting to have a professional career in the army. In many cases it would lead to him having to pay all his expenses. So it would seem odd if a young man went to this trouble, and then left the country. Or perhaps he wanted to have a career, but up close it was not that much fun. One of my father's best friends in New York City, Baron Wilhelm von Saucken, was a Prussian Army officer who got into some sort of a tangle over a woman and had to take off and ended up as a head-waiter in New York City, married to an English actress. The Regimental Court of Honor of a unit often demanded a duel in matters of honor, even though it was against the law, and the duelist might have to serve say four months in jail for dueling, but that was better than defy the Court of Honor and ruin your military career. Perhaps your great grand-father was not a good shot. (I only jest, EM I think did not get into this dueling business.) My grand-father, as an old man (and crack shot) challenged another reserve officer to a duel with automatic pistols; the other man, very famous and rich (the patriarch of the Wirthheim family), wisely refused, and was tossed out of the Reserve Officers' Association. I thought that this was a joke when I first heard it, and my father responded: "Not at all. Your grand-father was an excellent shot, and he fully intended to kill the son-of-a-bitch!"

The regulations of the Prussian Army were enormously complex, but, in my opinion, very well thought out, very efficient. There were a lot of ways to get yourself sleeping under an army blanket.

Did your great grand-father go back to Germany? Fight in WW I?

Bob Lembke

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#15

Post by bob lembke » 12 Nov 2006, 09:55

Here is my post from the other thread. I was largely re-inventing the wheel.

Bob

" The book is well known. I myself neither have it or have seen it, but I have a lot of German material that serves the same purpose. I have seen knowledgable people criticize it for errors, but the task is almost impossible. It will mention the regiment, but I don't think that it will have a lot of information.

Infanterie=Regiment Nr. 150, according to a source from 1900, was garrisoned in Allenstein (as you said), and was part of the 37th Infantry Division, also based in Allenstein, 75th Infantry Brigade, also based in Allenstein, and part of the I. Armeekorps, HQed in Königsberg. The 1st Army Corps was unusual for having three instead of two divisions (Nr. 1, 2, and 37), but of course was right up against the Russian border, and clearly was a strategic and threatened point.

Many of the units in the 1st Army Corps were among the oldest in the Prussian Army, but the 150th was, as the high number suggests, a recently formed unit.

These traditional relationships and unit structures generally lasted till 1914 and even generally till 1916, when a number of major reorganizations, not the least going from the "square" division to the "triangular" division, radically changed and/or weakened the traditional formations. After 1916 units were in great flux.

Without specific study, the history of this unit would be clouded by Königsberg becoming part of the Soviet Union and by the (supposed) destruction of the Prussian Army archives in a fire air raid on Potsdam in 1944 or 1945. However, I would imagine that there was a regimental history written; I can check on this.

What exactly do you want (an unfair question)?

Can you read German?

Do you have any documents or letters (since you know his company)? In particular, a small booklet, probably with blue covers, entitled Militär=Pass, or another booklet, probably with a light colored cover, entitled Soldbuch (i.e., "Salt Book". The name has connections to Roman times.)?

I will look up your other thread and see what has been posted.

Bob Lembke "

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