Luftwaffe losses France, 1940

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Wargames
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Luftwaffe losses France, 1940

#1

Post by Wargames » 23 Nov 2006, 04:33

Does anyone have enough information to share a discussion of the Luftwaffe's losses in France? I believe they lost on the order of 1,200 planes but very little is written about it. This strikes me as a significant amount of airplanes for a short war in which you're winning and which the British withdrew their planes from.

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Simon K
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Re: Luftwaffe losses France, 1940

#2

Post by Simon K » 02 Aug 2008, 12:20

The attack on the West was twice as expensive,although Galland was dismissive of the aircraft he shot down: "In addition to obsolete Hurricanes the pilots flew French types:Morane, Bloch, and Potez.our ME109E was technically superior to them all" By the time Dunkirk fell he believed "The enemy air force was heavily damaged..the extensive losses it had sustained began to make itself felt.."
It is true that the French air force was virtually demolished [*]and the RAF took terrible punishment,with over 900 aircraft lost,including 453 Hurricanes.What is very relevant is the manner in which those Hurricanes were lost. Terraines analysis shows that 378 of them "were either destroyed on the ground, or were aircraft under repair that had to be abandoned.."That leaves a maximum of 75 Hurricanes lost in combat.In the same campaign the Luftwaffe lost 367 fighters,mostly ME109s, and probably not destroyed on the ground.
This is not to suggest that 75 Hurricanes fell while knocking down 367 Messerschmitts; the air war was far more complex than that. But few historians of the assault on the West point out that it cost the Luftwaffe 1,389 aircraft of all types,and that 367 of them were "technically superior" fighters.
Derek Robinson - Invasion 1940 pp122-3
[*] Although Horne says "At the armistice the French air force was still stronger than it had been on the 10th may"
Horne - To lose a Battle - France 1940.


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Re: Luftwaffe losses France, 1940

#3

Post by Jon G. » 02 Aug 2008, 13:33

Simon K wrote:...This is not to suggest that 75 Hurricanes fell while knocking down 367 Messerschmitts; the air war was far more complex than that.
Indeed it was; such a crude calculation would also disregard the contributions of the French, Dutch and Belgian air forces.
But few historians of the assault on the West point out that it cost the Luftwaffe 1,389 aircraft of all types,and that 367 of them were "technically superior" fighters..
Actually, there are several historians who point out the magnitude of the Luftwaffe's losses during the 1940 campaign in the west.

For example, E. R. Hooton, in Phoenix Triumphant p. 267-268 lists Luftwaffe losses as 1,428, 0f which 1,129 were lost due to enemy action. Hooton goes on to list 1,092 aircrew killed, 1,395 aircrew wounded, and 1,930 aircrew missing. Corresponding French losses were 574 a/c lost in the air (of which 174 were lost to Flak), 460 aircrew killed and another 120 taken prisoner. RAF losses were 959 aircraft (of which 477 were fighters and 381 bombers) and 912 aircrew killed or missing (of which 312 were pilots) and another 184 aircrew wounded.
[*] Although Horne says "At the armistice the French air force was still stronger than it had been on the 10th may"
Horne - To lose a Battle - France 1940.
That depends on how you count. If you count frontline, active aircraft strength the Armée de l'Air was weaker at the time of the armistice, and it had fewer aircrew. On the other hand, the French aircraft industry had a high output near the end of the conflict, and US aircraft deliveries were also increasing.

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Re: Luftwaffe losses France, 1940

#4

Post by Simon K » 02 Aug 2008, 13:45

If that rate of loss continued, France held its positions on the Somme, and The RAF had succeeded in provoking AH to a bombing war of the cities 3 months earlier than it in fact did, Germany then would have lost tactical air superiority?
German aircraft production at this period was very poor,I believe.

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Re: Luftwaffe losses France, 1940

#5

Post by mars » 03 Aug 2008, 05:30

According to Peter Cornwell's "The battle of France then and now": between Sep 1939 to May 9 1940 Luftwaffe lost 354 aircrafts and 445 air crews killed or missing in the west, and between May 10 to Jun 24 Jun 1940, Luftwaffe lost 1814 aircrafts and 3278 air crews killed or missing in the west

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Re: Luftwaffe losses France, 1940

#6

Post by Wargames » 03 Aug 2008, 08:46

These high German aircraft losses in such a short period of time against second rate aircraft (Although the Hurricane was hardly "obsolete") leaves me scratching my head. Has anyone identified the source? Did the air landings in Holland contribute?

It would appear German bombers flew unescorted missions and were shot down in droves. Yet the loss of 367 of their fighters means they were in air to air combat with Allied fighters and doing somewhat poorly. I've always seen the losses but not the reason.
Simon K wrote:
It is true that the French air force was virtually demolished [*]and the RAF took terrible punishment,with over 900 aircraft lost,including 453 Hurricanes.What is very relevant is the manner in which those Hurricanes were lost. Terraines analysis shows that 378 of them "were either destroyed on the ground, or were aircraft under repair that had to be abandoned.."That leaves a maximum of 75 Hurricanes lost in combat.In the same campaign the Luftwaffe lost 367 fighters,mostly ME109s, and probably not destroyed on the ground.
This is not to suggest that 75 Hurricanes fell while knocking down 367 Messerschmitts; the air war was far more complex than that.
It certainly leads to the question of how it happened though because what did knock down 367 ME's?

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Re: Luftwaffe losses France, 1940

#7

Post by Simon K » 03 Aug 2008, 08:52

Exactly.

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Re: Luftwaffe losses France, 1940

#8

Post by Simon K » 03 Aug 2008, 08:56

Please note that was a direct attribution from Derek Robinsons ' Invasion,1940
Check it out.

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Re: Luftwaffe losses France, 1940

#9

Post by Wargames » 03 Aug 2008, 08:57

Jon G. wrote:
Simon K wrote:...This is not to suggest that 75 Hurricanes fell while knocking down 367 Messerschmitts; the air war was far more complex than that.
Indeed it was; such a crude calculation would also disregard the contributions of the French, Dutch and Belgian air forces.


I think the crude calculation is still rather justified considering the state of the above air forces. That's not to say I believe 75 Hurricanes shot down 367 ME's. Obviously not - but the Dutch and Belgium fighters were no match for the Germans. I suppose the French fighters "must have been" in order to explain the German losses as 75 Hurricanes won't. But much of the French air force had been hit on the ground on the first day so even this inclusion has its problems. Does anyone have info on the French losses in air versus on the ground?

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Re: Luftwaffe losses France, 1940

#10

Post by Simon K » 03 Aug 2008, 09:02

There was some use of tactical radar sets by the British army,I believe. The BEF certainly had them.
This has never been explored before.
I have the JG26 War Diaries for the period, and will start looking at losses.

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Re: Luftwaffe losses France, 1940

#11

Post by Simon K » 03 Aug 2008, 09:12

Also 78 bombers,31,Stukas,67 recce machines, 12 ME110 and 67 ME109s were destroyed in Poland.A further 279 machines had to be rebuilt.
Approaching 40% (even by a conservative estimate) of the Polish airforce was eliminated in the first 48 hrs. So what hit 579 aircraft? Recovery on the ground by the allies,even for a couple of weeks,would eliminate Germany tactical air superiority.
This is a strategic issue which points to a fatal weakness of the whole blitzkreig strategy. There was NO RESERVE.
This is also a weakness of Nazi economics.

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Re: Luftwaffe losses France, 1940

#12

Post by Jon G. » 03 Aug 2008, 11:36

Wargames wrote:These high German aircraft losses in such a short period of time against second rate aircraft (Although the Hurricane was hardly "obsolete") leaves me scratching my head. Has anyone identified the source? Did the air landings in Holland contribute?
Ju-52 losses were heavy in Holland although I can't find them just now. Figures are somewhere in Hooton. Some downed Ju-52s were eventually repaired and taken back on strength because the Dutch didn't have time to destroy them.
It would appear German bombers flew unescorted missions and were shot down in droves. Yet the loss of 367 of their fighters means they were in air to air combat with Allied fighters and doing somewhat poorly. I've always seen the losses but not the reason...
Please note that 367 fighters lost does not mean that they were all shot down in air-to-air combat. I'm not even sure if the 367 figure includes all fighters lost, or if it counts fighters lost to enemy action only - in either case, you would have to include Bf-109s lost on the ground and to ground fire, and in any event the Luftwaffe fighter loss rate compares favourably to the RAF fighter loss rate, especially when you consider that the Luftwaffe got much more mileage out of its aircraft than the British and French did.
...I think the crude calculation is still rather justified considering the state of the above air forces. That's not to say I believe 75 Hurricanes shot down 367 ME's. Obviously not - but the Dutch and Belgium fighters were no match for the Germans. I suppose the French fighters "must have been" in order to explain the German losses as 75 Hurricanes won't...
That's because you assume that all German fighter losses were caused by air-to-air combat.

Also, some Luftwaffe losses were to 'superior' fighters. For example, according to Hooton p. 260 the RAF 11 Group flew 746 Spitfire sorties for 48 losses over the Dunkirk pocket from May 27th to June 2nd. Corresponding Hurricane figures were 906 missions and 49 losses, whereas the Luftwaffe flew 1,529 Bf-109 missions for 29 losses over Dunkirk in the same period.

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Re: Luftwaffe losses France, 1940

#13

Post by Simon K » 03 Aug 2008, 12:25

It is safer to assume 367 as "from all causes"

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Re: Luftwaffe losses France, 1940

#14

Post by Simon K » 03 Aug 2008, 12:31

The JU52 losses are stated (again by Robinson)
157 JU52s were destroyed on the 10th May alone.
By the end of the Western campaign, total JU52 losses (he is clear that these are destroyed) 213 out of a total force of 475. cf Robinson - p115

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Re: Luftwaffe losses France, 1940

#15

Post by mars » 03 Aug 2008, 19:34

Wargames wrote:These high German aircraft losses in such a short period of time against second rate aircraft (Although the Hurricane was hardly "obsolete") leaves me scratching my head. Has anyone identified the source? Did the air landings in Holland contribute?

It would appear German bombers flew unescorted missions and were shot down in droves. Yet the loss of 367 of their fighters means they were in air to air combat with Allied fighters and doing somewhat poorly. I've always seen the losses but not the reason.
Simon K wrote:
It is true that the French air force was virtually demolished [*]and the RAF took terrible punishment,with over 900 aircraft lost,including 453 Hurricanes.What is very relevant is the manner in which those Hurricanes were lost. Terraines analysis shows that 378 of them "were either destroyed on the ground, or were aircraft under repair that had to be abandoned.."That leaves a maximum of 75 Hurricanes lost in combat.In the same campaign the Luftwaffe lost 367 fighters,mostly ME109s, and probably not destroyed on the ground.
This is not to suggest that 75 Hurricanes fell while knocking down 367 Messerschmitts; the air war was far more complex than that.
It certainly leads to the question of how it happened though because what did knock down 367 ME's?
Wargames, most of Luftwaffe aircrafts were shot down by French in 1940, recommend Peter Cornwell's "The battle of France then and now", in which details every single known losses of German, British,France, Italy,Dutch and Belgian aircrafts loss

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