1945- Soviets continue the drive west!

Discussions on alternate history, including events up to 20 years before today. Hosted by Terry Duncan.
User avatar
muzrub
Member
Posts: 97
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 13:30
Location: Gold Coast Queensland, Australia

1945- Soviets continue the drive west!

Post by muzrub » 12 Mar 2002 15:50

Before Japans final capitulation!
Soviets Assist Japan-

The Western powers re-arm German troops-
Dönitz is left in power-
Soviets overun missile bases- plans for V2-
Have Me 262 technology-

Atomic testing fails- more research is needed (could take many years)

What happens?????????????

Andy Krause
Banned
Posts: 82
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 21:37
Location: united states

Post by Andy Krause » 12 Mar 2002 20:18

all hell breaks loose but in the end I think the western powers prevail because the Germans are bitter at the russians and still follow the nazi regime even though all is lost of the third reich and hitler is dead,as far as the a-bomb goes the western powers still get it first because the u.s and german scientists work together and get it before the russians and russias help to japan dont last long but if that happened it definently would have been hell :twisted:

Raverdave
New member
Posts: 1
Joined: 13 Mar 2002 01:24
Location: Melb. Australia

Post by Raverdave » 13 Mar 2002 02:28

I dare say that the US would start dropping A-bombs on the USSR. By this stage of the war, the western powers were growing tired of war.
The problem is finding a bomber with the range to get to Moscow.
USSR bailing out the Japs? Hmmmm.....if only to enslave Japan as part of the Soviet Bloc like they had done in Eastern Europe. But it sure is a good way of blocking the US in the pacific.

Gwynn Compton
Member
Posts: 2840
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 22:46
Location: United Kingdom

Perhaps a Doolittle style raid...

Post by Gwynn Compton » 13 Mar 2002 09:54

Why not a Doolittle style raid on Moscow? I'm sure the US would be able to con someone into dropping the bomb to wipe out Stalin. Or perhaps on Stalingrad or Leningrad to really give the Soviet's a hint. I doubt the Soviet's would have continued the war, mainly because I think Stalin was getting sick of it as well as the Western Powers.

User avatar
Thunderstruck
Member
Posts: 37
Joined: 14 Mar 2002 18:18
Location: Texas

Post by Thunderstruck » 14 Mar 2002 18:53

The B 29 had a 4200 mile range, probably enough to drop a nuke anywhere useful in Russia, don't forget China was one of the Allies.

Steve

Dazfos
Member
Posts: 7
Joined: 14 Mar 2002 18:10
Location: Manchester, UK

Post by Dazfos » 15 Mar 2002 14:43

They could have an A-bomb developed in early 1946, just when teh test were fully completed, put it in a b29, flown it all the way to Greenland then to Scotland from Scotland to Norway.
Which would have German / British Military Armies as Security and maybe the Finnish would have thrown their Finnish-Soviet peace treaty in the fire after signing owith the British/US/German Allied Forces.
The troops from Italian Campaign are transferred to Norway and then onwards to Finland, where the Army break through the Finland-Russian border and attack Leningrad.
The rest of the USA/Europe army attack and follow the same plan as the WWIII plans that were later designed to stop and push back Soveit Forces if they ever attacked West Germany, by invading Yugoslavia, Eastern Germany under Soviet rule, and then Poland, Rumania and the other Warsaw pacts.
Then start agreements with the Ukraine, to re-abstabilise the Ukraina Rada, the old Ukraine goverment dissolved by the Bolsevkis in late 1918.
Then A-Bomb Moscow and Kursk and city near Moscow (Goskow?) were the Russian Govement was going to goto if the Germans had captured Moscow in Winter 1941. showing the Russians people that Stalin has no way.
This would force Stalin to form a peace as he would not have all the American aid they got of the US during fighting Hitler, also the B29 have the entended range over all German bombers so the Russians Indutrial plants could be destroyed altogether, also Fighter power to the allieds would total overpower the Russians fighter and bomber command.

In the beginning the Russians would gain a lot of land maybe even pushing the Allied forces all, the way to the Magiot line where a massive Allied army would be waiting in defense stronghold rebuff the attack and then go on the counter attack the Russian supply lines would be buggered as the Military stocks of fuel, ammunition and otehr materials the Russians would need would be in not there.
Allied Army 1 would attack across the entire of the French, Belgium Botrder of German in Blitzkrieg style, the Allied Army 2 attack via Italy, Austria into Southern Germany, Allied Army 3 attack via Italy into the Balkans.
When Germany falls, along with Switzerland and Austria, then Army 1/2 push throw Polandm, Romania and Hungary, etc.
Army 3 via the Balkans and northern countries bordering the Balkans.
When Balkans taken Allied command draw peace treaty with Tito stating that Tito governs the Balkans, but Allied army stays in the Balkans to provide states Security stability, until the Russians troops no longer can break through into Balkans.
Then the WW3 Allied Invansion of Soviet Union goes into place.

User avatar
Nagelfar
Member
Posts: 1102
Joined: 08 Sep 2002 06:31
Location: Pacific Northwest

Post by Nagelfar » 31 Dec 2002 09:32

there is no way the soviets would help imperialist japan, but a continued drive west may be possible nonetheless; minus that factor. soviets were allies of the chinese. japan would have continued on their own, and probably count their blessings that the soviets were pressing on europe if america needed to focus on that front too, it may have helped japan in the pacific.

User avatar
davethelight
Member
Posts: 1691
Joined: 21 Dec 2002 07:52
Location: Australia

Post by davethelight » 31 Dec 2002 10:52

Well, I must ask you, what the hell could the Soviets have done to help Japan anyway. Their navy was crap, I repeat, crap. They certainly couldn't challenge American supremacy of the ocean, much less break the blockade of Japan itself. The only thing they might be able to do is provide supplies to Japanese land forces in South East Asia, but why, unless they wanted to grab some of the European colonies around there.
Either way, eventually the Japanese homeland would be invaded and captured, or nuked and then be made to capitulate, which would probably force their armies in Asia to surrender to the allies too.

As for the west. I'm not fully certain, but I think the Soviets had about 6 million troops in the west against about three million allied troops. I also suspect that the allies had almost as many tanks as the Russians, just as many aircraft, and certainly a more advanced and effective tactical airforce.
Unless the Soviets could take the allies completely by surprise, then there would have been one Mo**er F**ker of a fight going on, and I would say
that at best, the Soviets might be able to push the allies gradually westwards at a slow pace, maybee a few miles per day. Before long, they would be loosing enormous quantities of harware and supplies which would simply never make it to the front, being destroyed en-route by allied ground attack aircraft. Probably after about six weeks the Russians would get to the French border, by this time Britain is sending back in several hundred thousand troops it had demobilised just before the end of the German war, and several hundred thousand more are on their way from America.
Meantime, America decided to make an extra ten or so nukes, cos they know they're going to come in handy. They use two or three on Japan, and then the Japs give up.
About this time too the allies would be systematically destroying Russia's most important oil sources in the Caucasus with very powerful airforces sent from Europe.
So by this time the Soviets might still be making ground in Europe, but they would be beggining to suffer fuel shortages through the combination of the allied bombing of their oil fields in the caucasus, plus the round the clock attack of their supply lines behind the front in the west.

Then, about three months into this new war, with the allied armies solidifying somewhere in the middle of France and in northern Italy, America nukes a big Russian city, say Leningrad, then serves an ultimatum to the Soviets to pull their head in or loose it.
Stalin would probably come to terms.
If he didn't, America would systematicaly start nuking every major city and industrial centre in Rusiia within range of their B29s. Before long, the Russians would begin to suffer from a badly damaged industrial capacity, not to mention millions of factory workers vapourised.
Shortages would start to affect them at the front, then the allies would counter attack before the Russians could rebuild their industries, and it would then be the Russians getting pushed east once again.
How long this would continue would largely depend on how long the Russians would take to rebuild their industries, but it would probably be at least three months before they could start to supply their front line forces with enough supplies to sufficiently replace losses.
Then the Yanks drop a few more Nukes.
Then Stalin says, how about we sit down, have a cup of tea, and talk things over.

User avatar
GFM2000
Member
Posts: 303
Joined: 13 Mar 2002 08:27

Re: Perhaps a Doolittle style raid...

Post by GFM2000 » 31 Dec 2002 11:12

Gwynn Compton wrote:Why not a Doolittle style raid on Moscow? I'm sure the US would be able to con someone into dropping the bomb to wipe out Stalin. Or perhaps on Stalingrad or Leningrad to really give the Soviet's a hint. I doubt the Soviet's would have continued the war, mainly because I think Stalin was getting sick of it as well as the Western Powers.


Isn't it true that by 1945, Soviet and Western Allies relations have certainly deteriorated, a factor not helped by Churchill's and Stalin's intentions on a post-war Europe.

Although it is highly unlikely that the Soviets will continue on West after May, 1945, I did recalled reading an account about Stalin, in the 1950s, ordering his Generals to conquer Western Europe within a few months.

8O

User avatar
peter_suciu
Member
Posts: 199
Joined: 29 Nov 2002 16:49
Location: New York City

If Stalin Drives West

Post by peter_suciu » 31 Dec 2002 20:49

Russia would starve by winter. There was no way they could continue to feed their army, feed their people and those people they conquered. Their supply lines were totally overstretched and there was little hope of a successful attempt to drive the allies out of Europe.

The British and American bombers could have further disrupted supply lines and it wouldn't have been hard to rearm Germany rather quickly.

Best case for the Soviets is that the catch the allies off guard and push to the Rhine. Then six months later they'd be driven back to Poland and perhaps further. I doubt that Stalin would last long. I see someone sane removing him and sueing for peace.

User avatar
LeoAU
Member
Posts: 336
Joined: 13 Mar 2002 23:04
Location: Down Under, Melbourne

Post by LeoAU » 06 Jan 2003 15:34

Soviets make initial strike with all 6 tanks armies - 6 Ardennes at a time. WA pushed all the way back to France.France in the fear of being occupied, begs for peace.
Or maybe US and UK sufferes so many casualties, that they sue for peace? Say a million in the first couple of months, the public protest and US withdraw their troops from Europe - like Vietnam scenario.

makov25
Member
Posts: 82
Joined: 02 Jan 2003 17:49
Location: Texas USA

Post by makov25 » 09 Jan 2003 07:09

Peter_suciu,the starvation in Russia started in 1917 and ended in 1947. and I am not talking about food shortage I am talking about major starvation when people ware eating dead and each anther, like for example in Povolzye in 1918-1919 in Ukraine in 1921-1923, in 1931 and 1947. Millions are died in those years. So Russians know have to survive in this conditions, but Americans and English are don't.
I agree with LeoAU scenario.
Glenn

User avatar
LeoAU
Member
Posts: 336
Joined: 13 Mar 2002 23:04
Location: Down Under, Melbourne

Post by LeoAU » 09 Jan 2003 15:47

Another example of how Soviets dealt with starvation - siege of Leningrad. Million dead, but the city did not surrender.
Also, the cituation of 41-42, when the 41 crops were lost, and major agricultural areas occupied (and LL was insignificant!) - Soviets survived. In 45 - those areas regained.

User avatar
Second try
Member
Posts: 149
Joined: 29 Oct 2002 23:54
Location: Nowhere

Post by Second try » 09 Jan 2003 21:22

LeoAU wrote:Soviets make initial strike with all 6 tanks armies - 6 Ardennes at a time. WA pushed all the way back to France.France in the fear of being occupied, begs for peace.
Or maybe US and UK sufferes so many casualties, that they sue for peace? Say a million in the first couple of months, the public protest and US withdraw their troops from Europe - like Vietnam scenario.


My problem is that I don't know how large a soviet tank army is and you are right France should be weak point of the western allies. But french people are opportunist of course and many dependes on the war situation. They were just freed from germans. I don't think they should not had been fought (1st French Army).

Of course,all military confrontation had its own steps (and many depends on the work of intelligence services) and soviet military threat should had stopped the retransport of US and Commonwealth troops. Beside british and others (Canadian,Anzec,South Africa,Polish)standed five armis of americans (The 1st,the 3rd,the 9th,the 7th and the 5th). if the allies could achieve a stand off or slow down the soviet advance (the soviet casualities should be huge,even much higher than the Western Allies should ever have) and could strike (mainly from the air) the soviet supply lines,everything is over for the Red army I think. A stand-off should result uprisings in Ukraine and Poland and maybe in Hungary either way. Yugoslavia should carry on secret negotiation with the allies continuosly.

Respectfully...Col.Valentine

User avatar
TIBERIVS
Member
Posts: 261
Joined: 03 Apr 2002 21:57
Location: San Diego,California

Post by TIBERIVS » 14 Jan 2003 00:43

As for dealing with huge casualties, we avoided that before we invaded Japan. We nuked them. The question is if the Soviets would have offered peace after we nuked a few of their cities. I f not then all of our B29 stratafortresses for have been launched against them and most of Eastern Europe would be uninhabitable because of radiation. 8O

Return to “What if”