LMGs used by Asien Korps in MiddleEast

Helen Bachaus · Post by **Helen Bachaus** » 23 Dec 2006 05:32

Hi All

I'm new to this group and have been going through all the pages finding info which has been invaluable - My thanks to those folk. My interests apart from Africa, Pacific is the Middle East from Gallipoli right through to the Armistice and then into the RCW conflict.
I'm interested in all forces that fought during these campaigns, especially the Turks and Germans from an Australian prespective. I'm also fortunate to have some lovely folk whom I wargame this period in miniature with.

I pray someone can assit me with some information. I've read where the Asien Korps used Bergmanns LMGs in the Middle East. The source is Military Operations Egypt and Palestine Appendix 6 in Vol II, 2. However, did they also use Lewis Guns and any other LMG? Did they also have MP18s? I've seen on a hyperlink a German Stormtrooper in desert attire with a MP18 in helmet. Did they have them in the Middle East?

Any pics of the Asien korps with these weapons will assist in my research for scenario ideas for WW1.

Thanks in advance

Helen

stevebecker · Post by **stevebecker** » 23 Dec 2006 09:24

Mate,

If you go to the search part of this and enter "Bergman".

I asked about this weapon some time ago and the reply's included a photo of some German soldiers with them.

Cheers

S.B

Helen Bachaus · Post by **Helen Bachaus** » 23 Dec 2006 10:54

Steve, Thanks for the tip. I'd managed to find the pic on the Asien Korps Bergman LMG through the search and many scrolls and pages.

God Bless

Helen

Helen Bachaus · Post by **Helen Bachaus** » 23 Dec 2006 10:58

Here's the link I mentioned about the Asien Korps and the illustration of a German with MP 18 in desert attire:

http://www.net4war.com/e-revue/dossiers ... -korps.htm

Peter H · Post by **Peter H** » 23 Dec 2006 12:26

Hi Helen,

That link is in error--only 3,000 MP18s were issued before November 1918,not 30,000.The later figure is more the total production of the weapon that still continued on and after 1918, for police use,export etc.

Also used extensively by the Freikorps:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=75464

I have my doubts that this weapon was ever allocated to the Asienkorps.I have seen no mention of it in Allied records of the Palestine campaign at all.

Regards
Peter

Helen Bachaus · Post by **Helen Bachaus** » 23 Dec 2006 13:35

Thanks Peter, I wonder if the Allies in Palestine that captured these weapons classed them as automatic rifles as they would not have know what the exact term was! Just a thought as I continue to discover new threads of information.
FYI we are running a Gallipoli game at Cancon in Canberra on the long weekend of January. Its centred around the landing of the Australian 3rd Brigade.

God Bless

Helen

Chris Dale · Post by **Chris Dale** » 23 Dec 2006 15:35

Hi Helen,
I agree with Peter I've seen no mention or photos of MG18's on the Palestine front. Also no mentions or photos of steel helmets there, seen on that illustration (if someone else has, please correct me!). Also that figure is wearing a khaki M15 tunic, again not correct, the Asienkorps wore new M16 khaki tunics, completely different to that. I think that whole figure is just wrong.
Here's a photo (from Portepee.de) of the Asienkorps with a machine gun. I know very little about weaponry so perhaps you can identify it for me?
Cheers
Chris

Helen Bachaus · Post by **Helen Bachaus** » 23 Dec 2006 20:52

Hi Chris, Thanks for the reply and pic. It very much looks like the Bergmann LMG 15. Its certainly not a Masden LMG.

God Bless

Helen

Helen Bachaus · Post by **Helen Bachaus** » 23 Dec 2006 20:58

Here's a pic of the Bergmann LMG 15

Bill Woerlee · Post by **Bill Woerlee** » 23 Dec 2006 23:39

Helen

G'day matess

I see you live in Canberra - maybe just down the road from me.

Anyways, here is a pic taken by a soldier and exchanged for a penny with the rest of the LH units operating in Palestine. There is no date attached to the pic. Note the steel helmet, two different pistols in front of Bergmann LMG 15.

Cheers

Bill

Peter H · Post by **Peter H** » 24 Dec 2006 00:34

Thanks Bill for that photo.

I think its already been mentioned that the Bergmann was air cooled,more ideal for a desert environment than the heavier, water cooled Spandaus.

Also issued to Turkish stormtroop detachments if I'm correct.

Bill Woerlee · Post by **Bill Woerlee** » 24 Dec 2006 01:06

Peter

G'day mate

I have put an enlargement of the belt buckles from the pic. They are distinctly Turkish. This Bergmann LMG appears to have been used by Turkish storm troopers. I suspect this pic was taken after the El Burg raid Saturday, 1 December 1917.

Here is the post battle report:

A captured Medical Officer stated that the attacking forces consisted of an assault battalion of the 19th Division and that exclusive of the wounded that had been evacuated by him early in the fight, there was none of the Battalion left. A few days later, three men, who said they belonged to this battalion, came in and surrendered saying that their comrades were either killed or with us as prisoners and that they were lonely and wanted to join the latter.

This assault battalion consisted of specially picked troops; their physique was the best we had ever seen amongst Turkish prisoners. The battalion had only arrived a few days before from the Galician front. They were all armed with bombs and most of them wore German type of steel helmet. One man had thrown 92 bombs [as was evident by the number of metal clips], before he was shot through the head.

Included in the captured material were eight automatic rifles, similar in pattern to our own Hotchkiss Rifles.

I hope this helps.

Cheers

Bill

Helen Bachaus · Post by **Helen Bachaus** » 24 Dec 2006 04:03

Hi Guys

Many thanks for the additional information todate. Does anyone know if they have come across source material and/or pics indicating the number of captured lewis guns used in Palestine and if indeed the Turks used them as well as the Asien Korps? Its a tall order, but thanks in advance if you can assist. Its a project I'm working on at the moment and trying to tie down reliable source material.

Bill, the steel helmet seems to be the Turkish style? Its hard to see the rim due to the sand.

Merry Christmas

God Bless

Helen

Peter H · Post by **Peter H** » 24 Dec 2006 04:16

If I'm correct the ALH did use Lewis guns but later dropped them?

trickcyclist · Post by **trickcyclist** » 24 Dec 2006 08:57

Never seen anything about Turks using Lewis guns. They had their own version of the Maxim, as well as the Bergmann, and they used captured Russian machine guns as well.

The Lewis guns were so coveted that I doubt the Germans would give any to the Turks. Maybe to Turkish assault units, but certainly not to the ordinary line infantry. The 19th Division was one of the best-trained and equipped Turkish outfits, and its assault company (maybe later it became a battalion?) definitely wore steel helmets. It was trained by the Germans at a camp in Rohatyn, Galicia.

By the way, the steel helmet in the photo has a peak facing to the left, so it's German.

I'm trying to figure out how one man threw 92 hand grenades. The typical load of stick grenades for a shock trooper was eight--four in each sack. Did this guy scavenge off of the bodies of his fallen comrades?

Merry Christmas to Oz. We here in the US appreciate youse-all to no end.

TC

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LMGs used by Asien Korps in MiddleEast

LMGs used by Asien Korps in MiddleEast

Captured Bergmann LMG 15 in Palestine, 1918.

Belt buckles