Generalmajor Adolf Fischer career 1943/44

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Bernd R
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Generalmajor Adolf Fischer career 1943/44

Post by Bernd R » 02 Jan 2007 14:45

Hello all,

could someone give the career data of Genmaj Adolf Fischer in 1943 / 44 ?

From the divisional history of 96. Infanterie-Division (Pohlmann, 1959)
colleague Tobias provided the info, that Fischer at a time in 1944 was Führer 96. Inf.Div.

Conflicting or no info found in the following sources :

Mike Miller's ABR :
04.06.1940 - 15.10.1943 : Kdr IR/GR 459 / 251. Inf.Div
...
05.03.1944 - 10.05.1944 : detached to Army-Group South as Representative of On-Leave
and Sick-Leave Division Commanders
10.05.1944 - 01.07.1944 : delegated with the leadership of the 376. Inf.Div
01.07.1944 - 01.08.1944 : Kdr 376. Inf.Div

lexikon-der-Wehrmacht.de :
jan 1944 - aug 1944 : Führer 96. Inf.Div (i.V.)

AHFactbook :
96. Inf.Div / 376. Inf.Div no entry for Fischer

regards, luchs

Jan-Hendrik
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Post by Jan-Hendrik » 02 Jan 2007 15:22

The entry at Keilig states :

Image

Jan-Hendrik

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Dieter Zinke
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Post by Dieter Zinke » 02 Jan 2007 18:13

Adolf Fischer:

1943/44

24.04.1943 Führer 251. ID (during "Urlaub" of commander Felzmann)
then again Kommandeur Gren.Rgt. 459
15.10.1943 Führerreserve (illness)
26.10.1943 in the Staff Gren.Ers.Btl. 367
16.11. - 14.12.1943 kommandiert zum 8. Divisionsführer-Lehrgang
21.02.1944 kommandiert zum OKH, Führerreserve für Divisionskommandeure
21.02.1944 zur 96. ID
03.03.1944 arriving as Führer 96. ID ("Urlaub" of General Wirtz)
05.03.1944 kommandiert zur Heeresgruppe Süd as deputy for other commanders in vacancy or illness
10.05.1944 Führer 3367. ID (Gen.Maj. Zwade acting as Kampfkommandant)
20.07.1944 Kommandeur 367. ID (mit Wirkung vom 01.07.1944)
01.08.1944 Führerreserve
03.08.1944 kommandiert zum Wehrkreis XXI as deputy for Gen.Lt. Schroeck ("Urlaub") for the Division Nr. 192
09.08.1944 Leiter des Aufstellungsstabs der ID "Rhön"
31.08.1944 (mit Wirkung vom 01.09.1944) kommandiert zur Heeresgruppe F zur Verwendung beim Wehrmacht-Standort-Kommandanten Belgrad als z.b.V.
ohne Datum: Stab Kampfgruppe Fischer ("Kampfgruppe Südost")

source: Biblio-Verlag, Ritterkreuzträger, Infanterie, Band 6, Bissendorf, 2003

Dieter Z.

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Bernd R
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Post by Bernd R » 02 Jan 2007 18:58

Thanks Jan-Hendrik and Dieter !

as we are unsure about the KC action of Adolf Fischer here
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 30#1000530
and I have no access to the Biblio series until next week

Dieter, it would be a great help "just in time" to shed light on this issue, if you could
give info on the KC deed, if given in Biblio series.

regards, luchs

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Post by Dieter Zinke » 03 Jan 2007 08:44

Dear Lynx,

location ("Waffentat"): Belaja, breaking out of the "Hube-Kessel".

KC (3065) officially (Ritterkreuz-Kartei-Karte) as Oberst and commander of GR 459 / 96. ID / XXIV. AK / 1. PzAOK / HGr. Nordukraine

26.04.1944: the proposal arrives at HPA.

In reality:
Fischer was then (April/May 1944) indeed subordinated as Kommandeur Regiments-Gruppe 459 (not GR 459 !) to the Divisions-Gruppe 251 of rhe Korps-Abteilung E.
Fischer left the Regiment 459 in October 1943.

Dieter Z.
Last edited by Dieter Zinke on 03 Jan 2007 12:47, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Tobias Giebel » 03 Jan 2007 11:57

Hello Dieter,

so the informations are right, that Fischer has got the knight's cross in the 96. infantry division, or have I interpreted now a little bit wrong?

best regards
Tobias

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Post by Dieter Zinke » 03 Jan 2007 12:55

Tobias Giebel wrote:Hello Dieter,

so the informations are right, that Fischer has got the knight's cross in the 96. infantry division, or have I interpreted now a little bit wrong?

best regards
Tobias
Tobias,

the item in the KC-record card (Ritterkreuz-Kartei-Karte) concerning 96. ID is mistaken by the HPA.
The real assignment was then to the Divionsgruppe 251 / Korps-Abteilung E (see my information)

Dieter Z.

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Post by Tobias Giebel » 03 Jan 2007 14:01

Hello,

ah, I understand, it's a mistake of the divisions chronicle!

Many thanks for the information, Dieter!

Now we must find one more solution for Deegener! :D :wink:

Gruß
Tobias

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Post by Jan-Hendrik » 03 Jan 2007 14:05

No , the mistake was done by HPA.!

A similar case ( but the error is not as huge as here ) was Hensel , see :

http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=21393

Jan-Hendrik

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Post by Dieter Zinke » 03 Jan 2007 14:39

Jan-Hendrik wrote:No , the mistake was done by HPA.!
Jan-Hendrik
So isses !!
Indeed, yo' re right twice !!
Dieter

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Bernd R
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Post by Bernd R » 03 Jan 2007 15:44

Thank you very much, Dieter ! for providing this info form the Biblio series :D 8-)

Jan-Hendrik, Hensel case is strange, yes 8O

But, friends and fellow researchers, this Fischer case to me is really irritating !
In the moment, I am not convinced that all this facts fit together.
Have to take a break and some time for trying to research again, or is it my personal problem and I don't check it ?

What I mean is the following :

1. We needed the Fischer data to get a connection to the 96. Infanterie-Division, because it was the original question (awardholders thread), if he got the KC with this div or with Gren.Rgt 459 .

Now we have it confirmed I think, that Gren.Rgt 459 is correct. Stated by Scherzer and by Biblio series (officially). So, after serious research (concerning the "paper work" what more could be done than looking on the "Ritterkreuz-Kartei-Karte"?) we can use this unit for the KC lists, resp. don't list Adolf Fischer with the 96. ID.

2. It is to state, that obviously the "HPA", = someone of the personell there in the Fischer case took the "easy way", giving Gren.Rgt 459 as the award unit. Very interesting for itself - like people at all times, who wants to have things easy and logical; do you recognize yourself, reading researchers? :) :wink: I do :)
We have a real error produced here by the origin source, I think, because :
The unit of Fischer's KC award should have been Grenadier-Regiments-Gruppe 459 /Divisions-Gruppe 251 (according Biblio ; no doubt on that source to me right now).

It is a fact, that in autumn 1943 many divisions, which suffered heavy losses, don't have been disbanded, therefore so-called Divisions-Gruppen were built, within them Regiments-Gruppen of the former regiments (often just one btl). Mostly three of these Gruppen builded a so-called Korps-Abteilung.
Referred that, to explain that this restructuring and re-naming wasn't uncommon and KC awards with the correct new unit names occured, but not in the Fischer case.

That's what I meant with errors of sources, Tobias.

But, as a conclusion, we have to take it as a historical fact, that Adolf Fischer got the KC with Grenadier-Regiment 459 officially. Error, but correct !! Am I right ?

3. What I don't bring together :
Also no doubt about "Waffentat" : Eingang Vorschlag 26.04.1944 / location : Belaja, "Hube-Kessel".
If I'm correct, 96. Inf.Div was a unit of the "Hube-Kessel".
Was Gren.Rgts.Grp 459 / Div.Grp 251 / Korps-Abt "E" a unit of the Hube-Kessel ?
If I'm correct after a first look Korps-Abt "E" was with 2. Armee, area Pripjet/Gomel, not with 1. Panzer-Armee. (?)
Was Gren.Rgts.Grp 459 subordinated to 1. Pz.Armee at that time ?
Or indeed Fischer was delegated with the leadership of 96. Inf.Div in march/april in the "Hube-Kessel", performing his "Waffentat", and the HPA - we know 8O - did write his old Rgt 459 on his Karteikarte ?

It would be a great help indeed, Tobias, if you could provide info on Fischer's leadership of 96. ID from the divisional history to shed light on this aspect !

Finally, sorry Mike Miller, cited ABR entry of Fischer wrong with 376. ID -> my error/typo ;
you have it correct in 1944 -> 367 ID.

regards, luchs

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Post by Jan-Hendrik » 03 Jan 2007 17:01

Well , I am going to check my material regarding the Hube-Kessel to get this case right , but this will take a few days time . Maybe I am going to ask Mr.Scherzer , too ( he shared my opinion regarding Hensel as being something causing him much headache ! ) ...

Jan-Hendrik

EDIT :

A first glance tells us that this particular DivGr. 251 was part of KorpsAbt. E , see :

http://tinyurl.com/yzv6xs

which was part of 2.Armee further north at that time :

http://tinyurl.com/y3afu5

which leads me to a first conclusion ...we should forget about this RgtsGr. , that does not fit . But we will see what further research will bring , OK ?

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Post by Dieter Zinke » 03 Jan 2007 17:24

Dear Luchs
Korps-Abt "E" was with 2. Armee
Correct !
Dieter Z.

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Post by Tobias Giebel » 04 Jan 2007 00:51

Hello "Luchs",

I will see what I can find in my material to Adolf Fischer!

best regards
Tobias

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Bernd R
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Post by Bernd R » 07 Jan 2007 20:02

additional thoughts on this irritating case :
took part in Divisions-Führer-Lehrgang in dec 1943 already.
Delegated with the leadership of 96. ID in march 1944.
Commanded to Heeresgruppe Süd as deputy leader for On-Leave/Sick commanders.

So, was fit and planned to take over the position of a division commander.
And then was choosen to take command over a Grenadier-Regiments-Gruppe, which
probably was only batallion size ?
Of course, thinkable and not impossible, but...

Keep on researching this, colleagues.

regards, luchs

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