Battle of Sovkhoz «Red Star» (Sovkhoz 79)

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Yuri
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Re: Battle of Sovkhoz «Red Star» (Sovkhoz 79)

Post by Yuri » 11 May 2018 14:46

KTB PzD11 8-Dec-42
14,25 Uhr ist Sowchos 79 genommen (deutsch)
= 14,25 Sovkhoz 79 taken.
14,25 is Central European time?
How does this time compare to the Moscow time in December 42?

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Yuri
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Re: Battle of Sovkhoz «Red Star» (Sovkhoz 79)

Post by Yuri » 12 May 2018 11:02

Now the battle for Sovkhoz 79 according to the HQ GA DON's documents
42-12-07 ZwischenMeldung.jpg
42-12-07 Order_336ID-11PzD-7LwFD.jpg
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Yuri
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Re: Battle of Sovkhoz «Red Star» (Sovkhoz 79)

Post by Yuri » 12 May 2018 11:04

42-12-08 FunkSpruche_NachMeldung_zur_ZwichenMeldung.jpg
42-12-08 MorgenMeldung.jpg
42-12-08 TagesMeldung.jpg
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Mr.No one
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Re: Battle of Sovkhoz «Red Star» (Sovkhoz 79)

Post by Mr.No one » 13 May 2018 19:57

Yuri wrote:KTB PzD11 8-Dec-42
14,25 Uhr ist Sowchos 79 genommen (deutsch)
= 14,25 Sovkhoz 79 taken.
14,25 is Central European time?
How does this time compare to the Moscow time in December 42?
Yes, time on German reports followed Berlin time, which was two hours ahead of Moscow time. Thus 14.25 was 16.25 Moscow time. According to my knowledge, that is :wink:

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Re: Battle of Sovkhoz «Red Star» (Sovkhoz 79)

Post by GregSingh » 14 May 2018 10:05

Yes, time on German reports followed Berlin time, which was two hours ahead of Moscow time. Thus 14.25 was 16.25 Moscow time. According to my knowledge, that is :wink:
That is correct for December 1942 - 2h difference.
Daylight Saving in Germany and most of its allies ended on 2nd of November 1942. So up to 2.Nov.42 difference was only 1h.
If we become increasingly humble about how little we know, we may be more eager to search.

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Re: Battle of Sovkhoz «Red Star» (Sovkhoz 79)

Post by Yuri » 24 May 2018 16:14

The HG DON's documents for 8 and 9 December 42
42-12-08 Meldung1-2.jpg
42-12-08 Meldung3-4.jpg
42-12-08 Meldung5.jpg
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Yuri
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Re: Battle of Sovkhoz «Red Star» (Sovkhoz 79)

Post by Yuri » 24 May 2018 16:28

...continue
42-12-09 Meldung1-2.jpg
42-12-09 Meldung3-4.jpg
42-12-09 Meldung5jpg.jpg
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Re: Battle of Sovkhoz «Red Star» (Sovkhoz 79)

Post by Yuri » 24 May 2018 17:19

@ GregSingh
@ Mr.No one
Spasibo - Thanks - Danke schon

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Yuri
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Re: Battle of Sovkhoz «Red Star» (Sovkhoz 79)

Post by Yuri » 24 May 2018 18:04

Then 14-00 in the Wehrmacht's documents will fit 16-00 in document of the Red Army.
In village - Sysokin (that is sovkhoz No 79) defence took two tank battalions and part of motor-rifle-machinegun battalion of 216-th TBr.
North of the farm (about 1 km) in the field camp were the positions of 8th motorcycle regiment and other part motor-rifle-machinegun battalion of 216-th TBr.
About 16-00 (mean on CET 14-00) motorcycle regiment and part motor-rifle-machinegun battalion moved to South-East in the direction of Nizhne-Chirskaya.
We can assume that this movement of 8th motorcycle regiment was accepted by Germans as a departure from the state farm of all troops of the Red Army.

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Re: Battle of Sovkhoz «Red Star» (Sovkhoz 79)

Post by Yuri » 24 May 2018 18:58

Question - why 8th motorcycle regiment started moving from the area of farm in the rear of enemy - the answer can be found from the contents of two notes.
The first of these notes was written at 11 o'clock 45 min (09-45 CET) by commander of 5th Tank Army lt.gen Romanenko.
The second note is the answer, which was written at 14 hours 15 min (12-15 CET) commander of 8th motorcycle regiment Lt.Colonel Belik.
Now I give these notes in the Russian language.

The Ronanenko's note
Source: ЦАМО РФ Фонд 331 Опись 5041 Дело 15 Лист 50,51


Командиру 8 мотоц[иклетного]. полка

1. Вы действовали 7.12 плохо, нерешительно, трусливо.
2. запомните основное правило при входе в прорыв – назад не возвращаться до выполнения задачи; маневрированием охватывать больше пространства своими действиями.
3. 8.12.42 Приказываю быть в Тормосине. Разгромить районе Тормосин аэродромы дезорганизовать тылы и разрушить связь.
4. Установить какие силы в Тормосин и какие силы пр-ка подходят с запада и юго-запада.

Романенко
Данилов
8.12.42
11.45

Принял для передачи к-ру полка /Волков/


The Belik's note (ansver for Romamenko)
Source: ЦАМО РФ Фонд 331 Опись 5041 Дело 13 Лист 340
Романенко 14.15
Белик

Обвинение в отношении нерешительного действия неверно. Полк раньше пехоты и танков ворвался в совхоз №79 в 1.30 7.12.42 огнем артиллерии и пулеметов атаковал Верхний Солоновский, двумя разъездами действуя в направлении Верхне-Аксеновский.
Самая правдивая обстановка следующая.
В 10.00 до 50 танков пр-ка обошли совхоз №79 с северо-запада отрезали мой полк и 10 танков 216 Тбр в направлении выс.155.0 Я собрал все пушки танки какие только были в этом районе Преградил движение танков пр-ка на Островский
(Связался) 1 ТКа наши танки атакуют пр-ка на выс.155.0
Выполняю Ваш приказ. Сам контужен
Убитых 50 раненных 40 Имею 220 самолетоналетов пр-ка. Наших самолетов нет.
Белик
8.12.42

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Re: Battle of Sovkhoz «Red Star» (Sovkhoz 79)

Post by Yuri » 05 Jun 2018 18:59

Source: TsAMO RF Found 331 Inventory 5041 Delo 15 Sheets 50 and 51

To: Commander 8th motorcycle regiment

1. You acted 7.12 poorly, hesitantly, cowardly.
2. Remember the basic rule at the entrance to breakthrough - do not go back up to execution the task; maneuvering to cover more space for their actions.
3. 8.12.42 supposed to be Tormosin. To defeat the district of Tormosin airfields, to disrupt the rear and destroy the communication.
4. To establish what forces in Tormosin and the forces of enemy approach from West and South-West.

Romanenko
Danilov
8.12.42
11.45

Adopted for transfer to commander of regiment /Volkov/


The Belik's note (answers for lt.Gen Romamenko and major-gen Danilov)
Source: TsAMO RF Fund 331 Inventory 5041 Delo 13 Sheet 340

To: Romanenko 14.15
From: Belik.

The charges with regard to against indecisive actions wrong. Regiment before infantry and tanks broke into the state farm No. 79 at 1.30 7.12.42 fire of artillery and machine guns attacked Upper-Solonoski, two patrols acting in the direction of Upper-Aksenovskaya.
The most truthful situation is as follows.
At 10.00 to 50 tanks of enemy by passed state farm No. 79 from the Northwest cut off my regiment and 10 tanks of 216 TBr in direction of height 155.
I'm collected all guns and tanks which were just in the area Blocked the movement of tanks of enemy in Ostrovskiy
(Contacted) 1th TK. Our tanks attack enemy on height 155.0
Following your orders. Himself wounded
Killed 50 have wounded 40. 220 aircraft of enemy. No Our planes are.
Belik.
8.12.42

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Re: Battle of Sovkhoz «Red Star» (Sovkhoz 79)

Post by Yuri » 12 Jun 2018 08:52

From the AG"Don"'s documents follows that HQ of this group and all the German units and HQ was used at the same time a map of scale 1:100 000 1941 and the old card (1929).
At the same time on the map of 1941 (German version) incorrectly written name of the village Sulatsky (Sulazkij - german). Name on the German map Ulazkij - that is missing the first letter and therefore turned out instead Sulazkij - Ulazkij. In the flood plain of Chir river in the West Bank are located (North to South) villages: Golovsky-Ostrovsky-Sulatsky (angl. var). It is very important that on the old map the village Sulatsky (Sulazkij - german) is indicated much to West relative to the actual position - near of height 161. Therefore, if you transmit on radio or phone the position of the front line using the old map, but at other end of wire draw the front line on map 1:100 000 (1941), it may be a situation similar to what happened to AT Abteilung of 8th LwFDiv. That is, you can go to the front line or even in rear of the Red Army, but you will think that you are in rear of the German units. In my opinion that's exactly the reason arrived from Denmark (the Danish Islands in North sea) Bau-Battalion went to the rear of the cavalry units of Red Army - similar to what happened with AT Abteilung 8LwFDiiv.
In Meldungen's of HQ AG "Don" for 8 and 9 December, the front line provided correct and corresponds to what is in map of units of the Red Army. Thus, maps from 336th ID's KTB were made after the end of the fighting, but not for use in battle.
In AG"Don"' Meldung's indicated number of destroyed tanks - 46 pieces. This is close to actual if we count for two days of the fight - on December 7 and 8. In total, 1st TC of Red Army lost irrevocably 102 tanks between November 19 and December 25, 1941, including 78 tanks in period from December 6. Then, in addition, 256 tanks were repaired and sent back to battle, which were damaged for all reasons - artillery, mines, aviation, accidents. What quantity was damaged before December 6 is not specified. There is a detailed report with the statistics of damage to tanks of the 1st TC from November 19 to December 25, 1941. I will reproduce this report when I adapt it to English. Irretrievable loss of tanks are tanks remaining in the territory occupied by the enemy, destroyed (and burned) tanks that are not subject to restoration, as well as tanks requiring major repairs in the factory.
If number of damaged tanks after 6 December take in the same proportion that and irreversibly lost, then get that after 6 December was damaged about 190-200 tanks. Thus, for the period from December 6 to December 25, the 1st TC was shot down and destroyed about 270-280 tanks. Including however because of the actions of aviation and accidents.
KV-1 of the lt-col Kozhanov_s 216TBr Irretrievable loss morning 8-12-42 .jpg
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Re: Battle of Sovkhoz «Red Star» (Sovkhoz 79)

Post by Art » 28 Dec 2018 19:12

Personnel and equipment strength of the 11 Panzerdivision:
https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/mordig8 ... 17_900.jpg
https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/mordig8 ... 05_900.jpg
Personnel casualties:
https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/mordig8 ... 39_900.jpg
https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/mordig8 ... 22_900.jpg
Note large casualties on 9/10 December (an attack on the Soviet bridgehead at Ostrovsky). Characteristically both Mellenthin's and Balck's memoirs provided rather cursory treatment of these actions, while shifting attention to more successful (for the German side, I mean) events of 8 December.

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Re: Battle of Sovkhoz «Red Star» (Sovkhoz 79)

Post by lufty1 » 28 Jan 2019 12:35

Which book is the page above from?

thank you

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Yuri
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Battle of Sovkhoz «Red Star» (Sovkhoz 79)

Post by Yuri » 11 Apr 2019 18:47

Status 1 TC
Status_1TC_42-12-20.jpg
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