Ca 311 & 313/314

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James A Pratt III
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Ca 311 & 313/314

Post by James A Pratt III » 05 Mar 2007 17:12

Does anyone have any information on the operational use of the Ca 311 &313/314 during WW II? I know what units used it from "Courage Alone" and what role they performed (Recce, ASW, Coin ect.). I would also like some info on their combat losses. All I have is the following:
20 Nov 42 2- Ca 314 shot down Beaufighters 227 Sqn
24 Apr 32 1 Ca 311 shot down Spitfire 249 Sqn
Both happened in the Med and I know the units and aircrew casulties of these aircraft.

Wargames
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Post by Wargames » 06 Mar 2007 09:28

While I don't have have their combat losses, if you're interested in determining the combat value of these aircraft it would be ZERO. The planes were intended for use by colonial forces against natives armed with spears. In that regard, they were of sufficient design. But, against the British, they had no value (chance) at all. They were relegated to transport, sea recon, and ambulance duties. It is because they were not frontline aircraft that you have trouble determining their losses. They generally operated outside of British fighter aircraft range so losses were rather insignificant (as was their contribution to the war as a "weapon".).

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TISO
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Post by TISO » 12 Mar 2007 13:44

Yugoslavia bought number of Ca-310bis (almost identical as Ca-311) and few Ca-311 (only few delivered). They were used as trainer bombers. Few that survived were taken over by Italians and NDH (independant state of Croatia).

streljko1
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Post by streljko1 » 12 Mar 2007 15:02

Most of the losses of Italian airforce over Yugoslavia were Ca types:
http://www.vojska.net/eng/world-war-2/i ... da/losses/
Regards,
Jure

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Davide Pastore
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Re: Ca 311 & 313/314

Post by Davide Pastore » 17 Feb 2008 15:45

James A Pratt III wrote:Does anyone have any information on the operational use of the Ca 311 &313/314 during WW II?
Ca.311 was the initial, low-performance, version intended for close cooperation with the army
(and nevertheless it was the "modern" machine of the service, when compared with the older Ro.37 it was to replace). It was operated by OA (Osservazione Aerea) units which, as a rule, performed an unglamorous, if indispensable, role through the war. The list of Gruppi and Squadriglie flying with it would be too long to be typed here.

OTOH Ca.313 and Ca.314 (the two differed in the shape of the nose) was expected to be a modern, fast twin engined combat arircatf, more or less in the same league as Bristol Blenheim. Unfortunately the chosen in-line air-cooled engine (see other thread about IF engines) was a total failure and doomed the aircraft.

It was flown by 10° Stormo, 13° Stormo, 15° Stormo and 41° Stormo, labeled with the vague term "Combattimento" ["fighting"] to reflect the fact no-one had any clear idea about what these machines could do. After a hair-rising accident rate 15° Stormo soon converted to CR.42, and the others were mostly employed in coastal ASW recon before being gladly discarded. They eventually replaced Ca.311 in OA units, so that in 1943 13° was the only Stormo having them

As was true for the vast majority of Italian aircrafts: IF they had had decent engines, they would have been satisfactory aircrafts.

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phylo_roadking
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Re: Ca 311 & 313/314

Post by phylo_roadking » 02 Mar 2008 19:24

The Norwegians "bought" four 310s in 1939 - and they gave SO many problems in attempted service that they threatened to return them and charge Caproni the shipping costs! Instead Caproni sent an engineer to Norway, but IIRC only one could ever be described as flightworthy, and was airborne at SOME time during the campaign there...for there's an extant pic of it on the bank of a river short of a runway with its wheels up LOL it's VERY hard to find information on these four aircraft, I believe there's only ever been one dedicated folio publication on them by a Norwegian aviation society.

The BRITISH actually negotiated to buy IIRC some 200 or so 310s and 300 313s....but on hearing the problems the Norwegians were having - news travels fast in what was actually a very small marketplace, for ready-to-deliver military aircraft LOL - they changed the order to a mix of 100 311s and 300 313s; the RAF's training plans had identified a shortfall in twin-engined aircraft for bomber crew training, they didn't have enough Ansons. None were actually delivered, though during the run-up to the Battle of France Mussolini actually OK'd it with Hitler in MARCH 1940 for the contract to go ahead - with the aircraft being assembled at MARSEILLES then flown on to Britain!!! Hitler for some strange reason later halted this again 6 weeks later, but Count Caproni successfully argued for the contract and deliver to go ahead, with the aircraft being shipped through a front in Portugal instead - but obviously fell thru when Italy's invasion of Southern France automatically put Italy at war with Britain!!!

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Davide Pastore
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Re: Ca 311 & 313/314

Post by Davide Pastore » 03 Mar 2008 10:41

phylo_roadking wrote:The Norwegians "bought" four 310s in 1939
Exports:

Peru - ?x Ca.310 [at least one sent by ship in August 1937, 14 more "planned" to be sent by air, one crash-landed in Morocco 2 August 1939, unclear if the others reached destination]

Yugoslavia - 12x Ca.310, 12x Ca.310bis [some later taken over by Croatian air force]

Norway - 4x Ca310bis

Hungary - 36x Ca.310 [33 given back to Italy in 1941 in exchange for Ca.135]

Spain - 16x Ca.310

France - 5x Ca.313 [out of an order for 200]
[according to my Italian source: "the night of 17 June 1940 a couple of RAF Wellington took off from Salon-en-Provence and attacked the very Caproni factory the French aircrafts came from: it is not known if out of sheer ingratitude, or dissatisfaction with the purchased product" :lol: ]

Sweden - 90x Ca.313 [about 10% lost during the transit 8O ]

Germany - about 164x Ca.313G [out of an order for 905]

Ca.311, Ca.312, Ca.314, Ca.316, Ca.331 were not exported

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phylo_roadking
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Re: Ca 311 & 313/314

Post by phylo_roadking » 03 Mar 2008 14:39

the night of 17 June 1940 a couple of RAF Wellington took off from Salon-en-Provence and attacked the very Caproni factory the French aircrafts came from: it is not known if out of sheer ingratitude, or dissatisfaction with the purchased product
Did they drop bombs, or just selected Ca310 engine parts? Potentially more explosive...
33 given back to Italy in 1941 in exchange for Ca.135
Did they have any flying hours on them? :lol:

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TISO
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Re: Ca 311 & 313/314

Post by TISO » 18 Mar 2008 10:39

Yugoslav Ca-310bis and Ca-311 Were used as bomber/navigational trainers and for conversion of flight crew to multi engine bomber planes used at the time in YU ( SM-79, Do-17K, Blenheim).
After the war few Ca-313/314 that were left ower by NDH (Croatia) were used by Yugoslav airforce. Due to lack of spare parts they ended their carear in 50's as hacks in Mostar aircraft maintenance school (this info is from former coworker who was there at the time).

Just a little note standard Ca-310 and Ca-310bis were very different planes. Ca-310bis was almost identical to later Ca-311. AFAIK it was a decent trainer, observer amd COIN airplane (role in which it was mostly used in YU).

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