Chelmno

Dan · Post by **Dan** » 12 Dec 2002 17:26

[Split from the "SS personel at Chelmno" thread /webmaster]

Don't give up hope yet, the chance that he killed more than 200,000 people at Chelmno with a gas van is so minimal that you can probably discount the whole report.

Regards.

Dan · Post by **Dan** » 12 Dec 2002 17:29

Make that over 150,000

Dan · Post by **Dan** » 12 Dec 2002 18:53

The current claim for total deaths at Chelmno are about 200,000, and the mechanism is said to be a Russian diesel submarine engine, not death vans.

Your relative may very well have been a murder, but he was tried and sentenced by a kangaroo court.

Roberto · Post by **Roberto** » 12 Dec 2002 19:49

Dan wrote:The current claim for total deaths at Chelmno are about 200,000, and the mechanism is said to be a Russian diesel submarine engine, not death vans.

There is no such thing as a "current claim".

There are various estimates and assessments, the most conservative one being that of the Bonn District Court in its judgement against members of the "Sonderkommando Lange" and the "Sonderkommando Bothmann", who were tried in 1962/63. The court concluded that at least 145,500 people had been killed at Chelmno between December 1941 and March 1943, and another 7,176 between April 1944 and January 1945. The court pointed out that these were minimum numbers borne out by the documentary evidence alone.

As to the killing method, it was clearly established that gas vans were used at Chelmno. According to the depositions of perpetrators and eyewitnesses, these vans had gasoline engines.

Further details may be found in the study Nationalsozialistische Massentötungen durch Giftgas, edited by Kogon, Langbein, Rückerl et al, from which the above information was taken.

Dan wrote:Your relative may very well have been a murder, but he was tried and sentenced by a kangaroo court.

Where did they have kangaroo courts?

Certainly not in West Germany.

Here are the summaries of the trials before West German courts regarding Chelmno:

Case Nr.557
Crime Category: Mass Extermination Crimes in Camps
Accused:
Bradfisch, Otto 13 Years
Fuchs, Günter life sentence
Court:
LG Hannover 631118
BGH 641006
Country where the crime was committed: Poland
Crime Location: HS KL Chelmno, Lodz
Crime Date: 4201-4205, 4209, 4406-4408
Victims: Jews
Nationality: Polish, unknown
Office: Polizei Gestapo Lodz
Subject of the proceeding: Participation in the killing of the Jews from Lodz by the head of the Gestapo office Lodz and the head of department IIB. Deportation of many thousands of Jews from the Lodz ghetto to the Chelmno annihilation camp. Mishandling, in part with fatal consequences, and individual shootings of numerous Jews during the deportations. Shooting of Jews still found in the ghetto at the time of its liquidation in August 1944

Published in Justiz und NS-Verbrechen Vol. XIX

Source of quote:

http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/brd/brdeng ... eng557.htm

Case Nr.594
Crime Category: Mass Extermination Crimes in Camps
Accused:
B., Heinrich Walter no punishment imposed (par. 47 MStGB)
Burmeister, Walter 13 Years
Häfele, Alois 13 Years
Heinl, Karl 7 Years
H., Wilhelm 13½ Months
Laabs, Gustav 13 Years
M., Friedrich 13½ Months
Me., Anton no punishment imposed (par. 47 MStGB)
Möbius, Kurt 8 Years
Sch., Wilhelm 13½ Months
S., Alexander no punishment imposed (par. 47 MStGB)
Court:
LG Bonn 650723
LG Bonn 630330
BGH 641125
BGH 660803
Country where the crime was committed: Poland
Crime Location: HS KL Chelmno
Crime Date: 4112-4303, 4406-4408
Victims: Jews, Gypsies
Nationality: German, French, Austrian, Polish, Czech
Office: Haftstättenpersonal KL Chelmno
Subject of the proceeding: Killing of altogether at least 150,000 Jewish men, women and children, as well as of about 5000 Gypsies, who were deported in the course of a number of 'resettlement operations' from the Lodz ghetto and its immediate surroundings, to Chelmno, where they were exterminated in 'gas vans'

Published in Justiz und NS-Verbrechen Vol. XXI

Source of quote:

http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/brd/brdeng ... eng594.htm

Case Nr.603
Crime Category: Mass Extermination Crimes in Camps
Accused:
F., Gustav Wilhelm 13½ Months
Court:
LG Kiel 651126
Country where the crime was committed: Poland
Crime Location: HS KL Chelmno
Crime Date: 4203-4303
Victims: Jews
Nationality: German, French, Austrian, Polish, Czech
Office: Haftstättenpersonal KL Chelmno
Subject of the proceeding: Killing of, altogether, at least, 145,000 Jewish men, women and children, who were deported, in several 'resettlement operations', from the ghetto of Lodz and its immediate surroundings to KL Chelmno and exterminated in 'gas vans'

Published in Justiz und NS-Verbrechen Vol. XXII

Source of quote:

http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/brd/brdeng ... eng603.htm

Roberto · Post by **Roberto** » 12 Dec 2002 21:22

P.S.

For Mr. Heinl’s relative who opened this thread: the collection “Justiz und NS-Verbrechen” can be found in the law section of every university library in Germany. Look up Volume XXI, Case no. 594, where you will find a detailed assessment of the actions for which Heinl was sentenced to 7 years imprisonment. He obviously benefited from the benevolent German jurisprudence that usually condemned defendants who had murdered according to orders received but not in excess of such orders as mere “accessories to murder”.

David Thompson · Post by **David Thompson** » 12 Dec 2002 22:03

Dan -- Why do you think that the Bonn County Court and the German Supreme Court (which reviewed the case twice on appeal) are each a "kangaroo court"?

Dan · Post by **Dan** » 12 Dec 2002 22:43

Both the numbers and method. As you know, I pay attention to this forum, and the 155,000 plus number with gas vans sent up a red flag. I checked around the archives here, and found an old post by Roberto who's numbers I used, and the same ballpark numbers were just again used by Roberto.

Have we dropped the stationary diesel engine claim David? What numbers do you consider fair for both the stationary engine and the gas vans?

Notice I said the man may very well have been a murderer.

Regards
Dan

chalutzim · Post by **chalutzim** » 13 Dec 2002 01:28

Dan wrote: (...) Notice I said the man may very well have been a murderer.

Regards
Dan

I quite agree with you, Dan.

Dan · Post by **Dan** » 13 Dec 2002 01:46

But more to the point, what do YOU think of the 155,000 plus number?

chalutzim · Post by **chalutzim** » 13 Dec 2002 02:16

Dan wrote:Both the numbers and method. (...) Regards
Dan

(...) But more to the point, what do YOU think of the 155,000 plus number?

Emphasis is mine...

You forgot asking about the method! It is very important! Regards.

Dan · Post by **Dan** » 13 Dec 2002 02:37

What do you think about the 155,000 figure for gas vans, and what do think the number was for stationary homicidal gas chambers.

David Thompson · Post by **David Thompson** » 13 Dec 2002 02:56

Dan -- I might be wrong, but I don't think I've ever said or claimed anything, here or anywhere else, about stationary diesel engines. I don't have any special expertise in genocide statistics either. The figures used in Heinl's case were provided by the Bonn County Court at his trial.

I know you said that Heinl may well be a murderer. I'm not trying to be offensive in asking you about the "kangaroo court" remark.

West German courts acquitted many defendants of war crimes charges, and other accused war criminals received light sentences. I've often heard the West German courts accused of excessive leniency, but I've never heard them accused of being "kangaroo courts" before, so I thought I'd ask you why you said that.

chalutzim · Post by **chalutzim** » 13 Dec 2002 03:06

David Thompson wrote:Dan -- I might be wrong, but I don't think I've ever said or claimed anything, here or anywhere else, about stationary diesel engines. I don't have any special expertise in genocide statistics either.

I know you said that Heinl may well be a murderer. I'm not trying to be offensive in asking you about the "kangaroo court" remark.

West German courts acquitted many defendants of war crimes charges, and other accused war criminals received light sentences. I've often heard the West German courts accused of excessive leniency, but I've never heard them accused of being "kangaroo courts" before, so I thought I'd ask you why you said that.

David, I think the real question is: why we have to speak in such a defensive way?

Best regards. Wintceas.

David Thompson · Post by **David Thompson** » 13 Dec 2002 03:18

Chalutzim -- I don't mind a fight, but I try not to start them.

chalutzim · Post by **chalutzim** » 13 Dec 2002 03:38

David Thompson wrote:Chalutzim -- I don't mind a fight, but I try not to start them.

David, there is no fight at all! Just listen them. 8)