Count Ciano

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Gott
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Post by Gott » 11 Aug 2002 16:55

Csaba Becze wrote:Mussolini's daughter, Edda was the wife of Ciano. After Ciano's execution, Edda never spoke with his father.

Csaba
ouch...

so is there a bio of count ciano? just how and why did he sold out his own country??

Ovidius
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Post by Ovidius » 11 Aug 2002 18:42

Until now, I see two Italians(Turiddu and Luca) and one German(gott) calling Ciano a traitor who sold his country.

And yet no voices to attack them and calling them "Fascist sympathizers".

When the issue was Stauffenberg vs. Hitler, the situation was pretty much different.

I guess it's OK to betray Hitler, but wrong to betray Mussolini? :roll:

~Ovidius

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Gott
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Post by Gott » 11 Aug 2002 22:32

Ovidius wrote:Until now, I see two Italians(Turiddu and Luca) and one German(gott) calling Ciano a traitor who sold his country.

And yet no voices to attack them and calling them "Fascist sympathizers".

When the issue was Stauffenberg vs. Hitler, the situation was pretty much different.

I guess it's OK to betray Hitler, but wrong to betray Mussolini? :roll:

~Ovidius
eh i don't even know anything about ciano. all i know is that he was some sort of important position in the fascist government and he was mussolini's son-in-law. i don't know if he had betray his country, since i don't know anything about him. all i see is that those italians said he sold out italy, so i'm just wanting to know why is that so or what did he do that make those italians think that way, and i don't want to be here being called a "Fascist sympathizers." :roll: so which part of my question in the earlier post said i called him a traitor? i was asking why because i don't know a shit.

gabriel pagliarani
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Ciano non era un traditore!

Post by gabriel pagliarani » 11 Aug 2002 22:48

Count Ciano never sold out my country! He was against axis since the very beginning but he married Edda, the daughter of Duce. Therefore he was untouchable...before Verona! He was a dandy and a gigolò but he was always coherently enemy of Nazi party. Never changing idea till killing. He was not an hero, nor a traitor but only a victim of circumstances.

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ziggy wiseman
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ciano

Post by ziggy wiseman » 13 Aug 2002 23:56

Gabriel,you're 100% right.Ciano,as i wrote before,was a clever man.

gabriel pagliarani
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link to another object: Italo Balbo a crack in the monolith

Post by gabriel pagliarani » 14 Aug 2002 11:34

Not only Ziggy. Ciano and Balbo were the leaders of the anti-Nazi faction of Fascist party: they were absolutely against the laws discriminating judes that Mussolini imposed in 1938 only to accomplish Ribbentrop and both them were absolutely contrary to the Axis. Not ony: Balbo was in the opinion to declare war to Germany afer the "anschluss" of Austria and Mussolini was obliged to send 3 divisions at Brennero. The war was at the door, but against Hitler! This was the true difference between Fascist and Nazi parties: Mussolini was as much tough against external enemies (F.lli Rossetti, Matteotti) as tolerant with internal opposition (not to him obviously..) to the main official politics of the Party. Instead of killing internal opposition in a "long knives night" like Hitler did against Roehm, Mussolini tried to use it. But when the merge with Ribbentrop's politics and the war was just lost, the tolerance of Fascist party became as a dress too tight for containing 2 bodies simultaneously.
Why such a sudden high interest for Ciano in North America? There was a TV event like a soap-opera?

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GLADIVM
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count ciano taitor or not

Post by GLADIVM » 19 Aug 2002 07:12

As situation in july 43 was very confused is probably correct to say that Ciano did not betray Italy , but on the other hand Ciano surely betrayed himself and fascism .
I will elaborate a little to explain my meaning .
If you are part of a dictorial governement and work for many years in important positions to keep it in power and attack other defenceless countries (Albania ex.) it means that you share its goals , convictions and are committed to this cause . If one day for unclear reasons ( it not clear if Ciano suddenly had a crisis conscience and found fascim repellant) decide to go against the regime that yourself have propped up , it is clear to me that you betrayed you own ideas and therefore yourself .
Also if Ciano suddenly found fascism wrong and repellant why did he go to the germans to look for shelter ?
If Ciano had like Grandi gone underground or gone over to the other side I might think that he had finally understood the mistakes made by himself and fascism , but going over to the germans and later hoping that musssolini might forgive him and accept in the R.S.I. seems too much to believe that he was in good faith during the Gran Consiglio .
More likely he opted to stay on Grandi side hoping that some position might be available for him in the government and also may be he was unhappy with mussolini who had not long before sidelined him with the position of ambassador to the Vatican .
Anyhow I believe that worst treason that you can make is against yourself , allegiance to yr country in certain situations is a very cloudy issue . And believe that Ciano was guilty of this .
Obviously is you were a fascist in 43 Ciano was a traitor to yr cause and as such could not deserve any clemency and this is why people like Pavolini , who was his personal friend of long standing , tried so hard not to have clemency appeal send to mussolini who he was afraid might have pardoned Ciano for sake of families ties .
I think that more than the germans were the italian fascists who pressured mussolini to have ciano dead .

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GLADIVM
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count ciano taitor or not

Post by GLADIVM » 19 Aug 2002 07:14

As situation in july 43 was very confused is probably correct to say that Ciano did not betray Italy , but on the other hand Ciano surely betrayed himself and fascism .
I will elaborate a little to explain my meaning .
If you are part of a dictorial governement and work for many years in important positions to keep it in power and attack other defenceless countries (Albania ex.) it means that you share its goals , convictions and are committed to this cause . If one day for unclear reasons ( it not clear if Ciano suddenly had a crisis conscience and found fascim repellant) decide to go against the regime that yourself have propped up , it is clear to me that you betrayed you own ideas and therefore yourself .
Also if Ciano suddenly found fascism wrong and repellant why did he go to the germans to look for shelter ?
If Ciano had like Grandi gone underground or gone over to the other side I might think that he had finally understood the mistakes made by himself and fascism , but going over to the germans and later hoping that musssolini might forgive him and accept in the R.S.I. seems too much to believe that he was in good faith during the Gran Consiglio .
More likely he opted to stay on Grandi side hoping that some position might be available for him in the government and also may be he was unhappy with mussolini who had not long before sidelined him with the position of ambassador to the Vatican .
Anyhow I believe that worst treason that you can make is against yourself , allegiance to yr country in certain situations is a very cloudy issue . And believe that Ciano was guilty of this .
Obviously is you were a fascist in 43 Ciano was a traitor to yr cause and as such could not deserve any clemency and this is why people like Pavolini , who was his personal friend of long standing , tried so hard not to have clemency appeal send to mussolini who he was afraid might have pardoned Ciano for sake of families ties .
I think that more than the germans were the italian fascists who pressured mussolini to have ciano dead .

gabriel pagliarani
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Ciano non era un traditore!(n°2)

Post by gabriel pagliarani » 19 Aug 2002 07:39

Surely Ribbentrop asked to Mussolini the cut of the head of Ciano many times and since a far time before the war. Ribbentrop, thinking at himself as a son of lower class hated sincerely that noble gigolò Ciano at the very beginning. The difference between nazists and fascists is in the cut of the heads: for fascists the meaning is more political then physical when for nazists the meaning is simply physical. Every man not only facing them, but only "less friendly customized", as Ciano had to be killed. Hitler never sent his own enemies on Ponza Island like Mussolini did: there was not only one of his german political competitors still living at the very beginning of WW2. Nazis performed their own attitude when preparing the invasion of Italy and taking the full control of the fascist party in Verona.

Custermen
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"The Ciano Diaries" 1945

Post by Custermen » 24 Aug 2002 04:22

Edda Ciano went to Switzerland hiding diairies in her pregnant woman disguise.She sold the diairies to american inteeligence.
I looked to see if it was mentioned but didn't see anything on the book. Edda gave the manuscripts to the news services, which I think was published in some news magazines. The book "The Ciano Diaries" edited by Hugh Gibson and published by Doubleday & Co. in 1945.

It has a total of 584 pages but the best part of it is the DRAMATIS PERSONAE at the front that identifies about 500 political, governmental, and military figures.

Also speaking of mistresses, Clara Petacci was not his only mistress. One returned to the USA before the war and published a book later. And while reading "One Afternoon At Mezzegra" (by Peter Whittle, Prentice-Hall), it mentions that a Elena Curti Cucciati was able to catch up with Mussolini during his escape out of Milan. She was the daughter of Angela Curti and supposedly Mussolin.

Custermen

gabriel pagliarani
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A war crime or a crime against history?

Post by gabriel pagliarani » 24 Aug 2002 10:21

There is a lack in such documents because when Mussolini was killed at Dongo a lot of documents inherent the Foreign Affairs of RSI were kept by
Italian Communist Party through 53° Red Brigade leaded by Walter Alasio.
A lot of people thought they were transmitted in Moscow, but there is no evidence of them since now in the former KGB files. They were destroyed or they simply never existed? Hard question...

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Turiddu
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Post by Turiddu » 04 Sep 2002 04:35

Ciano was a good politician, not a leader but a follower. He didn't built something within Fascism, he just made profits on it. His son in law position helped him during the years and made him arrive until Foreign Minister. Mussolini did love Edda very much even before and after the Verona's trials.
I'm almost sure Mussolini suffered Ciano's betrayal, both personal and politically and also his death, but one of the fascist 'ideals' is to keep personal preferences away of National politics. Of course, this was not always respected and especially Mussolini used to choose the Fascist leaders.
As diplomat Ciano was good but overshadowed by Grandi, Contarini, Suvich and in many times he was oversized by the circumstances and needed his father in law's directions.


So for those who think Ciano was always anti Germany, here are two samples taken from -Italian Fascism- by Giampiero Carroci:

" in the last four months of 1937, Ciano, as his Diary shows, was filled with euphoria, with bellicose, anti-bourgeois and anti-British feelings, and was all for the Duce and for Germany. He became suspicious of Germany after the Anschluss in March 1938..."

"At the time of their intervention in Spain, Mussolini and Ciano strenghtened their relations with Berlin, which became close and cordial; so much so that in October 1936 they were given the name of the Rome-Berlin Axis..."

Further, Ciano was also in charge when the Antikomintern Pakt was signed by Italy. This pact brought ideologically closer Italy and Germany.

I agree he betrayed himself, the Fascism, the Duce and tryed to betray his own country as Badoglio did! So, Ciano did not sold Italia but his prestige and his honor within Fascist history.

I do respect the diplomat and the early fascist, but traitors are not welcome. Ciano is also responsable of the Greek campaign and its terrible results. This also made Fascism regime weak.

Turiddu

gabriel pagliarani
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Turi

Post by gabriel pagliarani » 04 Sep 2002 10:24

Caro Turi,
as 1st note I changed my beatiful RSI eagle with the face of Dad only to give you the honour of such an avatar...I wrote to Mark LV asking a man = an avatar and I obtained this. If you change the term traitor with the term opportunist, I agree with you 100%. I am not sure like you are he was fully aware about all damages he had done: Ciano (like many other dandies of the aristocracy was a consumer of cocaine and "bad females" and you understand perfectly what it means..). Mussolini had his own responsability in holding and protecting such a man only because Ciano got married to his daughter Edda, and Ribbentropp (I repeat this statement for the 3rd time!) hated him personally because Ciano was a vicious dandy, the worst he met.

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Turiddu
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Post by Turiddu » 22 Sep 2002 04:41

Grazie Gabriel!

Jasper Ridley writes on his book 'Mussolini' that Ciano, awaiting his last hour wrote a letter to W.Churchill denaying his complicity with Mussolini... but even the British gabinet refused to show this letter to the public in order to keep good relations with the antifascist Italians.

Ciano was hated by fascists because of his betrayal to the Duce and fascism and hated by partisans and antifascist because of his Fascist past. In one sentence, he tried to be an opportunist even before his death.
Pehaps he also tried to be a dandy with the 'pale woman'


Turiddu

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Alexderome
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Re: Count Ciano

Post by Alexderome » 01 Feb 2009 22:14

Ciano was reponsable of the italian intervention in Spain, Albania and Greece. He was afraind of the consequences of a war and after meeting Ribbentrop -who hated him-at Salszburg, Ciano tried to put Italy in a non-belligerant position. And he knew that itlian army was not ready for war.
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Eravamo 30 d'una sorte, 31 con la morte (Gabriele d'Annunzio).

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