Seelöwe: key dates

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fredleander
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Seelöwe: key dates

Post by fredleander » 06 Jun 2007 20:58

Split from http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=121850 by the moderator - Andreas
RichTO90 wrote:I just noticed this, which is curious and perhaps an early indicator of the de facto decision to abandon Seelöwe. Five minelayers of the Westgruppe after being assembled at Cherbourg, where they could actually conduct the operations, were moved to St. Nazaire? Which is a pretty off place to attempt to conduct near round-the-clock minelaying in the Channel well east of a line from Falmouth to Cherbourg? I mean they now have to steam some 500-600 kilometers to reach their area of operatons? That's kind of strange thinking, its probably about 30 hours or more steaming time away.
Or as simple as that they wanted to be out of the way of British bombers. Since the Seelöwe was postponed on the 17th, anyway......But, of course, you are entirely free to speculate...... :)

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Post by RichTO90 » 06 Jun 2007 21:13

leandros wrote:Or as simple as that they wanted to be out of the way of British bombers. Since the Seelöwe was postponed on the 17th, anyway......But, of course, you are entirely free to speculate...... :)
As usual you miss the point. :roll: The indefinite postponement on 17 September was with the previso that "preparations would continue", preparation in this sense would include the concentration of veesels to their starting ports. Furthermore, the statement by Raeder that in the event that the invasion did come off by mid-October, the invasion forces would be dispersed was not made until 26 September. And yet the dispersion appears to have begun 19 September?

So as I stated, it is an indicator that although the 17 September statement was described as a 'postponement' it was quite possibly the de facto end of the operation....which makes references to 'ultimo September' and 'October' more than a bit moot. The concentration had been acheived circa 22-24 September, but immediately began to disperse, which may also be inferred from the U-Boot sailings.

Is that clear enough?

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Post by Andreas » 06 Jun 2007 21:28

Seelöwe was never formally cancelled, according to Kieser. On 5 February 1944 (!) Skl ordered to stop all preparations and to move from 8 to 10 months to 12 months notice. Haape in 'Endstation Moskau' reports 6. Infanteriedivision to conduct invasion preparations throughout winter 1940/41 when they were stationed in Normandy. Other preparations continued as well, e.g. a convoy of Siebel ferries on 12 October delivering AA guns from Antwerp to Boulogne and Le Havre. What effectively killed the operation for 1940 in terms of planning was the move to S -15 at the end of September, according to Kieser. On 12 October Keitel advised the three services that the operation would not take place during winter, but would be considered for spring/summer 41 and preparations were to continue.

All the best

Andreas

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fredleander
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Post by fredleander » 06 Jun 2007 22:02

RichTO90 wrote:
leandros wrote:Or as simple as that they wanted to be out of the way of British bombers. Since the Seelöwe was postponed on the 17th, anyway......But, of course, you are entirely free to speculate...... :)
As usual you miss the point. :roll: The indefinite postponement on 17 September was with the previso that "preparations would continue", preparation in this sense would include the concentration of veesels to their starting ports. Furthermore, the statement by Raeder that in the event that the invasion did come off by mid-October, the invasion forces would be dispersed was not made until 26 September. And yet the dispersion appears to have begun 19 September?

So as I stated, it is an indicator that although the 17 September statement was described as a 'postponement' it was quite possibly the de facto end of the operation....which makes references to 'ultimo September' and 'October' more than a bit moot. The concentration had been acheived circa 22-24 September, but immediately began to disperse, which may also be inferred from the U-Boot sailings.

Is that clear enough?
You are exactly correct. I miss your point..... :)

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Post by Walter_Warlimont » 06 Jun 2007 22:23

For the longest time, I always thought that September 15th, 1940 would have been the perfect start date, but I learned as time went by that there was stromy weather on the 16th - 18th, thus making a landing on the 15th, a rather moot point, to say the least.

Weather & Tide wise, the best date to begin would have been with a Departure date on the 24th & a Landing date on the 25th.

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Post by LWD » 07 Jun 2007 13:09

According to the report posted in: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=121586
...another plan, was agreed upon, which secured the aproval of the navy. ... A further disadvantage was ...this plan omitting ... Cherburg and Brest, and depending on the less servicable channel ports...
Since the report is an image I have retyped it errors are likely to be mine and the relevant parts are on the 5th and 6th posts. This plan was apparently adopted on the 27th of August.

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Post by Andreas » 26 Oct 2007 10:45

HoustonProblem wrote:Reading with interest through this "Seelöwe maze", I don't recall reading a definite start date anywhere in these threads.

For purposes of our discussion, would it be helpful to narrow down a date for the operation?

Ansel gives a date range of 23.September through 27.September, 1940 that the Germans thought optimal (moon phase, tides, etc.). According to his book, significant preparation was still happening that would not allow the operation to start on the earlier dates, but these preparations were complete towards the end of this date range, and suggests the crossing could have started on the evening of 26.September, with a landing at dawn on 27.September.

Does anyone's research show something different?

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Post by Michael Emrys » 26 Oct 2007 13:03

Andreas wrote:Seelöwe was never formally cancelled, according to Kieser....Haape in 'Endstation Moskau' reports 6. Infanteriedivision to conduct invasion preparations throughout winter 1940/41 when they were stationed in Normandy. Other preparations continued as well, e.g. a convoy of Siebel ferries on 12 October delivering AA guns from Antwerp to Boulogne and Le Havre. What effectively killed the operation for 1940 in terms of planning was the move to S -15 at the end of September, according to Kieser. On 12 October Keitel advised the three services that the operation would not take place during winter, but would be considered for spring/summer 41 and preparations were to continue.
But was all this merely a cover for BARBAROSSA?

Michael

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Post by Andreas » 26 Oct 2007 13:54

Yes, although there would probably have been administrative inertia as well. My point was simply that there never was a formal cancellation of the operation. From a formal perspective, it was merely postponed, and indefinitely postponed only in 1944.

All the best

Andreas

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Andy H
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Post by Andy H » 27 Oct 2007 14:10

Michael Emrys wrote:
Andreas wrote:Seelöwe was never formally cancelled, according to Kieser....Haape in 'Endstation Moskau' reports 6. Infanteriedivision to conduct invasion preparations throughout winter 1940/41 when they were stationed in Normandy. Other preparations continued as well, e.g. a convoy of Siebel ferries on 12 October delivering AA guns from Antwerp to Boulogne and Le Havre. What effectively killed the operation for 1940 in terms of planning was the move to S -15 at the end of September, according to Kieser. On 12 October Keitel advised the three services that the operation would not take place during winter, but would be considered for spring/summer 41 and preparations were to continue.
But was all this merely a cover for BARBAROSSA?

Michael
Alan F Wilt from Iowa Sate University wrote an article concerning German cover operations against Britain in 1941 in the Military Affiars Vol38 No 1 February 1974.

The cover names being Haifisch=Shark & Harpune=Harpoon. The directives for these operations were laid out in April 1941 and to be ready for implementation by the August. During the first phase which was to last to the end of May, detailed plans were to be developed and practical measures such as ship assembly and photo recce flights were to begin. In addtion and to add credence citizens along the occupied coast were to "Find Out" that preparations were underway. The second phase was to begin in the June and consist of exercises in landings, loading and unloading troops etc. The final phase after the end of June was to be worked out depending on the military or political situation.

When the invasion of Russia begn on June 22nd, General Paulus (at the time headed the Operations section of the OKH) ordered that cover operations were to continue. This order can be found under/at:-
Oberkommando des Heeres, Gen-StDH/Op.Abt.IIa Nr.1284/41 g.Kdos, "Harpune" 22.6.41 T312/1560/000233

Regards

Andy H

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