The Jaeger Report.

[Erik]

Angelo has quoted the Jaeger Report on another thread:
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/v ... 650#107650


Here are some more extracts from the link he provided:
http://www.holocaust-history.org/works/ ... tro001.htm

The Jaeger Report:
A Chronicle of Nazi Mass Murder

From the Report:

The Jews had to be assembled at one or several locations. Depending on the number, a place for the required pits had to be found and the pits dug. The marching route from the assembly place to the pits amounted on average to 4 to 5 kilometers. The Jews were transported to the place of execution in detachments of 500, at intervals of at least 2 kilometers. The attendant difficulties and nerve-wracking activity occasioned in doing this are shown in a randomly selected example:
In Rokiskis, 3,208 people had to be transported 4.5 kilometers before they could be liquidated. To accomplish this task in 24 hours, more than 60 of the 80 available Lithuanian partisans had to be allocated for transportation and cordoning off duty.

………………..

On average, in every city in the district, there were 600 people of Lithuanian affiliation in prison, although there was no actual reason for their incarceration. They were taken into custody because of simple denunciations, etc. by partisans. Several personal accounts were settled in this way. Nobody looked after them. One ought to have been in the prisons and spent a minute in the overcrowded cells, which, in respect to hygiene, defied description. In Jonava - and this is one example of many - 16 men, all of whom could have been set free since there was nothing to bring against them, sat for 5 weeks in a dreary cellar room 3 meters long, 3 meters wide and 1.65 meters high. Girls aged 13 to 16 were locked up because they, in order to get work, had applied for admission to the Communist youth.

………………………

Those whom we sentenced to 1-3 and 6 months because of their offences were also specially set off, as were those who were to be liquidated, such as criminals, Communist functionaries, politruks and other such riffraff. In addition to the announced punishment, some, according to the offence, especially Communist functionaries, received 10 to 40 lashes with the whip, which were meted out immediately.


Those who were to be let free were led in a platoon to the marketplace and there, after a short speech in the presence of many inhabitants, let go. The speech had the following content (it was immediately translated sentence by sentence by an interpreter into Lithuanian and Russian): “If we were Bolshevists, we would have shot you, but because we are Germans, we give you your freedom.” Then followed a severe admonition to abstain from all political activity, to report to the German authorities any hostile activities that came to their attention and to intensively and immediately busy themselves in reconstruction, especially in agriculture. Should one of them again be found guilty of an offence, he would be shot. Then they were released. One cannot imagine the joy, gratitude and enthusiasm that our measures triggered in those who were freed and in the population. We often had to deflate the enthusiasm with sharp words, when women, children and men with tear-filled eyes sought to kiss our hands and feet.( “gez. Jäger SS-Standartenführer”.)

Here are extracts from the assessment of Yale F. Edeiken:
Link as above :http://www.holocaust-history.org/works/ ... tro001.htm

In "Messages of Murder," a study of the reports of the Einsatzgruppen, Ronald Headland wrote: "Jaeger's report is only several pages long, but for cold-blooded horror, for a mind-boggling depravity that leaves one stunned and incredulous at the ordered recording of such atrocities, this report is without equal in all of the Einsatzgruppen reports" [1]. The report was written at the request of Walter Stahlecker, the commander of Einsatzgruppe A by Karl Jaeger, the commander of Einsatzkommando 3, one of the subunits of Einsatzgruppe A.

………………….

As the Jaeger Report notes, some of the killing was carried out by Lithuanian "militia" and "partisans" even before Einsatzkommando 3 began its operations. The Lithuanian forces continued to assist Einsatzkommando 3 in the period covered by the Jaeger Report.

In response to his commander's request, Jaeger composed his report which tersely details the murders that were committed by his troops. There were only five copies of this report of which only the fourth survives. It was located in the Central Lithuanian Archives in Vilnius [5]. Although it was discovered too late to be used in either the Nuremberg Trial before the IMT or the trial of the commanders of the Einsatzgruppen in the subsequent trials [6], the Jaeger Report has been used at several other legal proceedings in several countries including Germany, Canada, and the United States. The most recent use of the Jaeger Report was in "U.S. v. Stelmokas" 100 F.3rd 302 (3rd Cir.; 1996). During the trial before the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Pennsylvania [7], the Jaeger Report was accepted as authentic and reliable over the objections of the defendant. Its impact can be gauged by the statement of one of the appeals court judges who reviewed the document. "Colonel Jaeger reports the executions of thousands of Jews and hundreds of others in such an impersonal, matter-of-fact-manner and with such pride that his account leaves one in a horror-driven state of shock." (100 F.3rd 302, 325). As the courts in that case noted, there is no doubt that the report is both authentic and reliable.

Neither Jaeger nor Stahlecker ever stood trial for their crimes. Stahlecker was mortally wounded by Soviet partisans in March, 1942. Jaeger survived the war and lived in Germany until his report was discovered. Arrested and charged with his crimes, Karl Jaeger committed suicide in prison while he was awaiting trial.
The Jaeger Report is not only authentic but stands as one of the most important documents about the Holocaust. It gives historians a close look at the actual procedures used by the Einsatzgruppen and how proud they were of their work [8]. No other known document presents this detailed an account of the regular and steady growth in the toll of victims as the Holocaust progressed. For the layman, the Jaeger Report - with its precise and dispassionate account of mass murder - helps to make the cold-blooded, premeditated killing of over one million human beings by the Einsatzgruppen a horrifying reality.

It is worth to repeat the last sentence:

For the layman, the Jaeger Report - with its precise and dispassionate account of mass murder - helps to make the cold-blooded, premeditated killing of over one million human beings by the Einsatzgruppen a horrifying reality.

If the Jaeger Report is authentic, then there is no doubt about the “horrifying reality” of the orthodox relation of the Holocaust. It surely “stands as one of the most important documents about the Holocaust” – if it is authentic.

It can be compared to the gas chamber at Dachau. If the Germans built that one, they certainly had gas chambers at any other camp you wish to name. Why shouldn’t they?

The “mind-boggling depravity” of such a mass murder urge, documented at the request of the commander, is “paraded” as follows:

The operations in Kauen itself, where reasonably sufficient trained partisans were available, can be considered as parade shootings compared to the often enormous difficulties that had to be dealt with outside. All the leaders and men of my commando in Kauen have taken part actively in the large-scale operations. Only one official from the police records department was excused from participation due to illness.

(side 8 ).

The commander was informed about certain frustrations of the said “urge”:

In Lithuania, there are no more Jews, other than the Work Jews, including their families. They are:
In Schaulen around 4,500
In Kauen “ 15,000
In Wilna “ 15,000
I also wanted to kill these Work Jews, including their families, which however brought upon me acrimonious challenges from the civil administration (the Reichskommisar) and the army and caused the prohibition: the Work Jews and their families are not to be shot!

(side 7)

That damned Reichskommisar! “Acrimonious challenges”!

Did Stahlecker understand the hardships of an exterminator?

“Oleg” has posted documents concerning child murders at Belaya Tserkov :
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/v ... .php?t=287

It was discussed here :

http://www.thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/v ... c&start=40

That massacre has the same problems in its documentation as the Jaeger Report.


In a couple of day we will celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ. Perhaps the subject of Belaya Tserkov is distasteful to consider in the closeness of such a joyful event in human history.

Then consider this:

http://209.11.144.65/eldritchpress/mm/mass2.html


Just looking at that painting again….well, I’ve decided to use my “sceptic” side here at this site, and not to trust any “gut feelings”.

Herod’s massacre of the innocents may be a historical myth, but Brueghel is true. You have no impulse to “leer” at the sight of those mothers with their children….


But the Jaeger Report gives the opposite impression to true art. It has the redundances of information, that characterizes a falsification "for a purpose".

Why incriminate the Lithuanian “partisans” by emphasizing their cruel treatment of those girls, who..” in order to get work, had applied for admission to the Communist youth”?

Why this exactitude of the cell measurements? (see above : 3x3x1,65 meters). It looks contrived, evidence invented for a purpose of prosecution (in Lithuania?).

What “superior instance” of a military organisation would WANT this kind of information? Of what USE would it be to the Nazis?

Must we postulate a “realm of madness”?

[Charles Bunch]

But the Jaeger Report gives the opposite impression to true art. It has the redundances of information, that characterizes a falsification "for a purpose".

Gee, why don't you alert the media!

I'm sure they'll be interested in your informed opinion.

[Hans]

The commander was informed about certain frustrations of the said “urge”:

In Lithuania, there are no more Jews, other than the Work Jews, including their families. They are:
In Schaulen around 4,500
In Kauen “ 15,000
In Wilna “ 15,000
I also wanted to kill these Work Jews, including their families, which however brought upon me acrimonious challenges from the civil administration (the Reichskommisar) and the army and caused the prohibition: the Work Jews and their families are not to be shot!

(side 7)

That damned Reichskommisar! “Acrimonious challenges”!

Erik,

And this was not the last time Jäger was getting into trouble with the army because he exterminated or wanted to exterminate Jews in labour. According to the following radio signal, Gestapo chief Müller received complaints that 630 Jews who were in labour were killed, apparently under Jäger's responsibility. In the consequence, Müller ordered Jäger to exclude Jews fit for labour from the "special measures":

Code: Select all

Riga Ft. Nr. 1533.                       Zeit 15.40   Tag 18   Monat 5   Jahr 42

Funkdienst der Sicherheitspolizei und des SD

GEHEIM

[handwritten:]II B z. KTs.
Rauca unterrichtet! Jäger


An den 
Kommandeur Sipo u. SD Litauen,
SS-Standartenführer J a e g e r.

Im Auftrage des Befehlshabers der Sipo und des SD gebe ich folgendes Ft. zur Kenntnis:

GEHEIME REICHSSACHE.
Betrifft: Endgiltige[sic] Lösung der Judenfrage.

Nach Mitteilung des OKH sind beim HKP 630 in Minsk als Fachhandwerker beschäftigte Juden, trotz gegenteiliger Zusage kürzlich Sonderbehandlungen unterzogen worden, wodurch angeblich Leistungspotential dieser Stelle wesentlich beeinträchtigt wurde. Zutreffendenfalls bitte ich künftig in Ausführung einer generellen Anordnung des Reichsführers SS und Chefs der deutschen Polizei, arbeitsfähige Juden und Jüdinnen im Alter von 16 bis 32 Jahren, bis auf weitere Weisung [!] von Sondermaßnahmen auszunehmen. Diese Juden sind dem geschlossenen Arbeitseinsatz zuzuführen. KZ oder Arbeitslager.

i.V. gez. Müller
SS-Gruppenführer

Source: special archive Moscow 500-1-25, page 379, quoted after Klein (ed.) Die Einsatzgruppen in der besetzten Sowjetunion 1941/42, page 411.

[Angelo]

Angelo has quoted the Jaeger Report on another thread:
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/v ... 650#107650
.................................Omissis.......................................................
In response to his commander's request, Jaeger composed his report which tersely details the murders that were committed by his troops. There were only five copies of this report of which only the fourth survives. It was located in the Central Lithuanian Archives in Vilnius [5]. Although it was discovered too late to be used in either the Nuremberg Trial before the IMT or the trial of the commanders of the Einsatzgruppen in the subsequent trials [6], the Jaeger Report has been used at several other legal proceedings in several countries including Germany, Canada, and the United States. The most recent use of the Jaeger Report was in "U.S. v. Stelmokas" 100 F.3rd 302 (3rd Cir.; 1996). During the trial before the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Pennsylvania [7], the Jaeger Report was accepted as authentic and reliable over the objections of the defendant. Its impact can be gauged by the statement of one of the appeals court judges who reviewed the document. "Colonel Jaeger reports the executions of thousands of Jews and hundreds of others in such an impersonal, matter-of-fact-manner and with such pride that his account leaves one in a horror-driven state of shock." (100 F.3rd 302, 325). As the courts in that case noted, there is no doubt that the report is both authentic and reliable.

Neither Jaeger nor Stahlecker ever stood trial for their crimes. Stahlecker was mortally wounded by Soviet partisans in March, 1942. Jaeger survived the war and lived in Germany until his report was discovered. Arrested and charged with his crimes, Karl Jaeger committed suicide in prison while he was awaiting trial.
The Jaeger Report is not only authentic but stands as one of the most important documents about the Holocaust. It gives historians a close look at the actual procedures used by the Einsatzgruppen and how proud they were of their work [8]. No other known document presents this detailed an account of the regular and steady growth in the toll of victims as the Holocaust progressed. For the layman, the Jaeger Report - with its precise and dispassionate account of mass murder - helps to make the cold-blooded, premeditated killing of over one million human beings by the Einsatzgruppen a horrifying reality.

It is worth to repeat the last sentence:

For the layman, the Jaeger Report - with its precise and dispassionate account of mass murder - helps to make the cold-blooded, premeditated killing of over one million human beings by the Einsatzgruppen a horrifying reality.

If the Jaeger Report is authentic, then there is no doubt about the “horrifying reality” of the orthodox relation of the Holocaust. It surely “stands as one of the most important documents about the Holocaust” – if it is authentic.

It can be compared to the gas chamber at Dachau. If the Germans built that one, they certainly had gas chambers at any other camp you wish to name. Why shouldn’t they?

The “mind-boggling depravity” of such a mass murder urge, documented at the request of the commander, is “paraded” as follows:

The operations in Kauen itself, where reasonably sufficient trained partisans were available, can be considered as parade shootings compared to the often enormous difficulties that had to be dealt with outside. All the leaders and men of my commando in Kauen have taken part actively in the large-scale operations. Only one official from the police records department was excused from participation due to illness.

(side 8 ).

The commander was informed about certain frustrations of the said “urge”:

In Lithuania, there are no more Jews, other than the Work Jews, including their families. They are:
In Schaulen around 4,500
In Kauen “ 15,000
In Wilna “ 15,000
I also wanted to kill these Work Jews, including their families, which however brought upon me acrimonious challenges from the civil administration (the Reichskommisar) and the army and caused the prohibition: the Work Jews and their families are not to be shot!

(side 7)

That damned Reichskommisar! “Acrimonious challenges”!

Did Stahlecker understand the hardships of an exterminator?

“Oleg” has posted documents concerning child murders at Belaya Tserkov :
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/v ... .php?t=287

It was discussed here :

http://www.thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/v ... c&start=40

That massacre has the same problems in its documentation as the Jaeger Report.


In a couple of day we will celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ. Perhaps the subject of Belaya Tserkov is distasteful to consider in the closeness of such a joyful event in human history.

Then consider this:

http://209.11.144.65/eldritchpress/mm/mass2.html


Just looking at that painting again….well, I’ve decided to use my “sceptic” side here at this site, and not to trust any “gut feelings”.

Herod’s massacre of the innocents may be a historical myth, but Brueghel is true. You have no impulse to “leer” at the sight of those mothers with their children….


But the Jaeger Report gives the opposite impression to true art. It has the redundances of information, that characterizes a falsification "for a purpose".
Why incriminate the Lithuanian “partisans” by emphasizing their cruel treatment of those girls, who..” in order to get work, had applied for admission to the Communist youth”?

Why this exactitude of the cell measurements? (see above : 3x3x1,65 meters). It looks contrived, evidence invented for a purpose of prosecution (in Lithuania?).

What “superior instance” of a military organisation would WANT this kind of information? Of what USE would it be to the Nazis?

Must we postulate a “realm of madness”?[/quote]

Well, Erik, I don't like offending people who have opposite views to mine
as long as they manage to show some COHERENCE and some ARTICULATED RATIONALE. But with you, in this case, I really find it hard
to either let drop your whole message or avoid being censorable. I'll try the latter for exercising on the virtue of patience.

I guess I respected your Christmas concern, which was fine, but I just didn't feel like waiting till January 2, 2003

Erik wrote

....I’ve decided to use my “sceptic” side here at this site, and not to trust any “gut feelings”.

Now, what does that mean ? Supposing you credited the Jaeger report as
being authentic, would that have meant you followed your "gut feelings" ?
Now, what "gut feelings" are needed with such a document, when you place it in the historical context in which it was born, when you consider
its absolutely plausible depiction of a reality which was well documented and testified over the years and which, on the opposite, did not present
any concrete element to make the reader reasonably suspicious about its
authenticity ?!

Erik wrote:....the Jaeger Report gives the opposite impression to true art. It has the redundances of information, that characterizes a falsification "for a purpose".[/quote]

Now, when the INFO is, or pretended to be SCARCE, you start complaining that NO ONE would seriously base on it, and when that same
INFO is just as natural and sufficiently provided with all elements you might expect of it, then you start whining that such completeness is
"redundant" to the point of inducing you to suspect a "falsification for
a purpose".

But let's see which are the elements concurring to create your so-called
"redundance":

Erik wrote:

Why incriminate the Lithuanian “partisans” by emphasizing their cruel treatment of those girls, who..” in order to get work, had applied for admission to the Communist youth”?

and then you added:

Why this exactitude of the cell measurements? (see above : 3x3x1,65 meters). It looks contrived, evidence invented for a purpose of prosecution (in Lithuania?).

Now, those being the ELEMENTS OF REDUNDANCE, you conclude, asking
yourself :

What “superior instance” of a military organisation would WANT this kind of information? Of what USE would it be to the Nazis?

Must we postulate a “realm of madness”?

Well, are you serious or what ???
The passage you are referring to about the Lithuanian partisans, as quoted by you in your previous post, reads like this:

In Rokiskis, 3,208 people had to be transported 4.5 kilometers before they could be liquidated. To accomplish this task in 24 hours, more than 60 of the 80 available Lithuanian partisans had to be allocated for transportation and cordoning off duty.

Where's the redundance ???

The next "suspicious" passage about the cells sizes and the Lithuanian
girls, as quoted by you in your previous post, reads:

On average, in every city in the district, there were 600 people of Lithuanian affiliation in prison, although there was no actual reason for their incarceration. They were taken into custody because of simple denunciations, etc. by partisans. Several personal accounts were settled in this way. Nobody looked after them. One ought to have been in the prisons and spent a minute in the overcrowded cells, which, in respect to hygiene, defied description. In Jonava - and this is one example of many - 16 men, all of whom could have been set free since there was nothing to bring against them, sat for 5 weeks in a dreary cellar room 3 meters long, 3 meters wide and 1.65 meters high. Girls aged 13 to 16 were locked up because they, in order to get work, had applied for admission to the Communist youth.

Even in this case where the hell do you find the despicable "redundance"
you were talking about.
The report starts with a general info about the jail situation and conditions
to give the reader an adequate idea of what it was like. Obviously, when
it comes to the OVERCROWDING aspect IT IS BUT TOO NATURAL that
it indicates those EXACT FIGURES as they give the necessary PICTURE
ABOUT THEIR OVERCROWDING and their hygienic conditions. Surely there
is an emphasis here, but ANY ONE (me included) would have resorted
to such a literary style IF he wanted to REMARK the overall SHAMEFUL
SITUATION of those prisons.
As to the girls, I wonder whether you were sober when you hinted at
such item or not. What's wrong with it ??? Were or were they not part
of the whole picture ???

So, where's the need of a "superior instance" to do just what any compiler
of any kind of report would have done to give, after all, just the necessary
info needed to have basically nothing more than a reasonable picture
of the situation. Entering details would have meant quite more pages and
quite other kind of references than those the report gives us.

You asked "Of what USE would it be to the Nazis ?" LOL, no less and no
more than the thousands reports any army occupying a given region or
state, while in the middle of a war, would have wanted to have to follow
up their daily routine. I mean, I could not criminalize the compiler for
the style he used to lay it down, it's just a report, that's all.

Finally, you ask whether

Must we postulate a “realm of madness”?

Go ahead and do it, but don't forget you'd be the KING of such a realm!

Angelo

[Erik]

Angelo:
Thanks for your reply.

The site has been surprisingly active during the Christmas Holidays, and, perhaps less surprising under ALL circumstances, the Jäger Report attracting little attention since you introduced it in your posting, Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2002 6:14 am.

You wrote:

Aside from the QUITE CLEAR CLASSIFICATION, which is a constant of
all such papers and which doesn't allow your assumptions as being
grounded, how would the CHILDREN be justified ? They too were "Jews
captured while performing partisan or anyway anti-German activities" ?

http://www.thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/v ... 650#107650

Who wants to look at horror bare at ANY time of the year?

Herod? Jäger? Stahlecker?

Here is the first paragraph of from the Holocaust History link below:

In "Messages of Murder," a study of the reports of the Einsatzgruppen, Ronald Headland wrote: "Jaeger's report is only several pages long, but for cold-blooded horror, for a mind-boggling depravity that leaves one stunned and incredulous at the ordered recording of such atrocities, this report is without equal in all of the Einsatzgruppen reports" [1]. The report was written at the request of Walter Stahlecker, the commander of Einsatzgruppe A by Karl Jaeger, the commander of Einsatzkommando 3, one of the subunits of Einsatzgruppe A.

(My emphasis.)
http://www.holocaust-history.org/works/ ... tro001.htm

Angelo wrote:

You asked "Of what USE would it be to the Nazis ?" LOL, no less and no
more than the thousands reports any army occupying a given region or
state, while in the middle of a war, would have wanted to have to follow
up their daily routine. I mean, I could not criminalize the compiler for
the style he used to lay it down, it's just a report, that's all.

To you, “it's just a report, that's all”.

Mr Headland and Erik are both rather “stunned and incredulous at the ordered recording of such atrocities”.

It seems that you KNOW more than we do.

Well, I won’t “criminalize” you for the “style” you use to “lay it down”, but such knowledge of human nature must give the rest of us the clue to the WHY of the “ordered recording” of it, even more so, actually, if it was a “daily routine” to be “followed up”.

If it was, why not include it in a “sum” of a “Sonderbehandlung”, then?

So, where's the need of a "superior instance" to do just what any compiler
of any kind of report would have done to give, after all, just the necessary
info needed to have basically nothing more than a reasonable picture
of the situation. Entering details would have meant quite more pages and
quite other kind of references than those the report gives us.

WHY would the superior instance want even “the ordered recording” of these kind of details, if it is a “daily routine”?

The report starts with a general info about the jail situation and conditions
to give the reader an adequate idea of what it was like. Obviously, when
it comes to the OVERCROWDING aspect IT IS BUT TOO NATURAL that
it indicates those EXACT FIGURES as they give the necessary PICTURE
ABOUT THEIR OVERCROWDING and their hygienic conditions. Surely there
is an emphasis here, but ANY ONE (me included) would have resorted
to such a literary style IF he wanted to REMARK the overall SHAMEFUL
SITUATION of those prisons.
As to the girls, I wonder whether you were sober when you hinted at
such item or not. What's wrong with it ??? Were or were they not part
of the whole picture ???

To me it reads like Hannibal Lecter stressing the moral necessity of brushing one’s teeth before the meal (or after it, considering the “daily routine”.)

Then it might be part of the “game”. Were Jäger and Stahlecker eager to distance themselves from the baltic “Unter-Menschen” and their inferior sense of fair deal and basic hygiene? To “pep” their morale by “comparative ethics”?

It has been said that the Final Solution and its SS “daily routine”, was “bolstered” by the fatalism of the Jewish victims and the placid compliance of the Jewish Sonderkommandos. A “German” of “Aryan stock” would not comply to such “daily routine”. They saw it as a matter of “Rasse”.

“We” against “them” works at all levels, as this site can illustrate on many occasions.

On the other hand does the “redundancy” of information fit well into a falsification for the purpose of bringing charges against Lithuanian anti-communist “partisans” ( the Report was discovered in 1958). The exact measurements of the cell (“3x3x1,65”) could easily be checked (the cells were “extant”?), and probably gave authenticity of sort to the report. An ex-inmate could easily be mustered as a witness.

Erik wrote

Quote:
....I’ve decided to use my “sceptic” side here at this site, and not to trust any “gut feelings”.

Now, what does that mean ? Supposing you credited the Jaeger report as
being authentic, would that have meant you followed your "gut feelings" ?
Now, what "gut feelings" are needed with such a document, when you place it in the historical context in which it was born, when you consider
its absolutely plausible depiction of a reality which was well documented and testified over the years and which, on the opposite, did not present
any concrete element to make the reader reasonably suspicious about its
authenticity ?!

……………..

Finally, you ask whether

Quote:
Must we postulate a “realm of madness”?

Go ahead and do it, but don't forget you'd be the KING of such a realm!

I have borrowed the expression from the KING of H&W (guess who!) who postulated such a realm to explain “the absolute plausible depiction of a reality” (your expression) of Human Soap Experiments at the Danzig Anatomical Institute.

The “gut feeling” as a source of knowledge was pronounced by Birgitte Heuschkel and witness to confirm the presence of White Supremacy Nazis on the thread “Can Germany ever be forgiven”.

Perhaps I’m over-using the quotation marks and quotes from the writings of different posters here at H&W – not everybody is a Roberto that remember their own writings.

I used the expression “gut feeling” to describe my reaction to a painting by “Bauer”- Brueghel, certainly one of the most horrifying paintings ever.

It is an obvious “falsification” of history. The Massacre of the Innocents didn’t take place in 1600 century snowy Flanders and Brabant. The thugs of Herod weren’t Spanish soldiers.

Still it is true. You feel it in your guts.

http://209.11.144.65/eldritchpress/mm/mass2.html

The notes to the painting indicate some contemporary allusions of the wars of religion, to supress “heresies” of Calvinism and Anabaptism by the Spaniards.

But the painting may have been painted before these events. All art was “contemporary” at this time, just as “gut feelings” always are.

In order to understand such allusions, you have to suspend your gut feelings and use other sources of evidence and knowledge.

This doesn’t mean that such sources of knowledge are “wrong”! Your gut feelings might alert you to a need to “throw up” something that’s “wrong”.

But it does not do as an argument.

Angelo wrote:

Now, what "gut feelings" are needed with such a document, when you place it in the historical context in which it was born, when you consider
its absolutely plausible depiction of a reality which was well documented and testified over the years and which, on the opposite, did not present
any concrete element to make the reader reasonably suspicious about its
authenticity ?!

When was the document “born”? ("Found" 1958). In what “historical context”? (Occupied Lithuania.)

“…its absolutely plausible depiction of a reality..” ( in a “realm of madness”) is discussed in the following posting.

It was written yesterday, before I read the posting of Angelo.

Go ahead and do it, but don't forget you'd be the KING of such a realm!

Well, here’s my kingdom then. No obeisance decreed.

[Erik]

The document supplied by Hans (thanks!) apparently supplies evidence that Jäger repeatedly went beyond instructions (”trotz gegenteiliger Zusage”) in his ambition to ”solve the Jewish question” (The document concerns the ”Endgiltige[sic] Lösung der Judenfrage”, final solution of the Jewish question”).

Jäger wrote to Stahlecker :

In Lithuania, there are no more Jews, other than the Work Jews, including their families. They are:
In Schaulen around 4,500
In Kauen “ 15,000
In Wilna “ 15,000
I also wanted to kill these Work Jews, including their families, which however brought upon me acrimonious challenges from the civil administration (the Reichskommisar) and the army and caused the prohibition: the Work Jews and their families are not to be shot!

(side7 of the Report).

If the datings of the Jäger Report are reliable (“up to december 1, 1941”), then the “special measures” in Minsk against 630 Jews “fit for labour” (“Fachhandwerker”) ought to have taken place AFTER the “acrimonious challenges from the civil administration (the Reichkommisar)”, mentioned by Jäger. The “radio signal” is dated May –42, but doesn’t date the “Sonderbehandlungen” that were undertaken against orders.

Jäger was obviously aware of such orders for the preservation of “working Jews and Jewesses”.

And then again he ignored them.

“Holocaust-history” (prepared by Daniel Keren) comments:

Those who were spared for slave labor were not to survive either; Jaeger writes (see eighth page, second paragraph from below, ending with "liquidieren"):
"These working Jews and Jewesses still available are needed urgently and I can envisage that after the winter this workforce will be required even more urgently. I am of the view that the sterilization program of the male worker Jews should be started immediately so that reproduction is prevented. If despite sterilization a Jewess becomes pregnant she will be liquidated."

http://www.holocaust-history.org/works/ ... tro000.htm

Jäger seemed to be looking for pretexts to kill. Since both male and female Jews would be sterilized according to the desired ”program”, a Jewess pregnant ”despite” the program would provide ample occasions to kill non-Jews, for ”Rassenschande” perhaps, i.e. illegal ”fornication” with race ”aliens”.

Jäger didn’t mind:

Blatt 3:

Monat September: 1.9.41 Mariampole 1763 Juden, 1812 Jüdinnen, 1404 Judenkinder, 109 Geistes- kranke, 1 deutsche Staatsangehörige, die mit einem Juden verheiratet war, 1 Russin.

(My emphasis).

Hilberg wrote:

With Romania and Bulgaria already out of reach, transport breaking down, Jewish laborers desperately needed in war industry, and Jews in mixed marriages exempt, the destruction process was nearing its conclusion. In November 1944, Himmler had decided that for practical purposes the Jewish question had been solved.On the twenty-fifth of that month he ordered the dismantling of the killing installations.[...]

Raul Hilberg, The Destruction of the European Jews, student edition, Holmes & Meier 85, page 252

(my emphasis).

A German citizen was killed, since (?) she was married to a Jew.

Jäger obviously wasn’t a “stickler for legality”, although he described himself as follows:

After his arrest by the German Police, the former SS-Standartenfuehrer Karl Jaeger defended himself by stating:

"I was always a person with a heightened sense of duty"

Such a ”sense” can be ”heightened” above both ”law and order”, seemingly. At least when doing duty for the SS.

Perhaps this is the problem facing members in organisations following ”oral” instructions and orders ”parallell” or ”simultaneous” to ”official” policies.

The ”final solution” on a ”Sonderbehandlung” line (”special measures”), meaning that extermination of the Jews should be screened or draped in some sort of ”practical purpose” of labor needs of a war industry, gave extensive scope for arbitrariness in action – both to a Jäger and to a Schindler.

Jäger perhaps had some ”gut feeling” or ”second sense” for the Will of the Führer that he could ”heighten” to a duty beyond the ”practical purposes” of war? The ”mind reading of a far flung bureaucracy”, apostrophed by Hilberg?

Or was he given oral counter-orders?

By Stahlecker? Jäger could trust his protection and complacency when it came to ignoring the Reichskommisar (see quote above)?

But it was not a private letter he wrote, but a Report! And there were five copies! (No. 4 is extant).

Hilberg wrote (see quote above) :

In November 1944, Himmler had decided that for practical purposes the Jewish question had been solved. On the twenty-fifth of that month he ordered the dismantling of the killing installations.[...]

But the “practical purposes” of solving the Jewish question went at variance with practical purposes of winning the war already in december1941, if we are to believe the “acrimonious challenges from the civil administration (the Reichskommisar) and the army”, to Jaeger’s will to kill (see above).

“Holocaust-history” (prepared by Daniel Keren) comments:

Among all Nazi documents detailing dastardly acts of mass murder and other atrocities, the "Jaeger Report" is one of the most horrifying.

Did the “dastard” Jäger face no risk by enumerating all the victims of his horrifying activities, without any trace of a “Tarnsprache”?

No rebuke like the following to the “Byelaya Tserkov” “outspokeness”?

From the Commander-in-Chief Army Headquarters
of Sixth Army 26 August 1941
1 c/A. O.
No. 2245/41 3 copies
9. Kdos copy 2
Statement on the report of 295th Division
on the events in Bialacerkiew [Byelaya Tserkov]
………………………….
The conclusion of the report in question contains the following sentence, `In the case in question, measures against women and children were undertaken which in no way differ from atrocities carried out by the enemy about which the troops are continually being informed.'
I have to describe this assessment as incorrect, inappropriate and impertinent in the extreme. Moreover this comment was written in an open communication which passes through many hands.
It would have been far better if the report had not been written at all.
(signed) von Reichenau
Distribution:
Army Group South = 1st copy
295th ID = 2nd copy Files
Files = 3rd copy
fd.R.d.A. (signed) Groscurth
Lieutenant i.G. (im Generalstab)

(My emphasis)

Belaya Tserkov:
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/v ... .php?t=287


Mr Thompson wrote:

A fair number of officers and civil officials protested the massacres (in this case, not a Waffen-SS operation), apparently thinking that they were war crimes, punishable by courts-martial. They obviously were unaware that the mass murders were policy, not an "individual excess."

http://www.thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/v ... 3968#93968


Did Jäger (and Stahlecker) know more about that policy than ”the civil administration (the Reichskommisar) and the army”?

And of what USE was the Jäger Report to Stahlecker? He couldn’t readily use it for promotion, could he?

Granted that a Report of such ilk was “desired” by Stahlecker, why no information concerning the location of the mass graves? Surely Stahlecker could be expected to want to be able to “check” the genocidal bravado of such a report (if such bravado was expected, “desired”, and applauded)?

The Jews had to be assembled at one or several locations. Depending on the number, a place for the required pits had to be found and the pits dug. The marching route from the assembly place to the pits amounted on average to 4 to 5 kilometers. The Jews were transported to the place of execution in detachments of 500, at intervals of at least 2 kilometers. The attendant difficulties and nerve-wracking activity occasioned in doing this are shown in a randomly selected example:
In Rokiskis, 3,208 people had to be transported 4.5 kilometers before they could be liquidated.

No precise “locations” of the “required pits”.

And even the body count has a somewhat haphazard precision.

Side 2 counts as follows:

August 15
and 16, 41
Rokiskis 3200 Jews, Jewesses and Jewish children 5 Lith. Comm., 1 Pole, 1 partisan

3,207

(My emphases!)

“3200 Jews, Jewesses and Jewish children” + 5 commies + 1 Pole + 1 partisan.

And then he remembered one more!!

“Ordnung muss sein”!

………………
But sometimes the victims got tired of marching:

Oct. 2, 41
Zagare 633 Jews, 1107 Jewesses, 496 J children (as these Jews were led away, a mutiny took place, which nonetheless was immediately put down. 7 partisans were wounded.)

Were the mutineers buried at the place of mutiny? Or did the survivers (or the unwounded partisans?) have to carry them along to the “pit”?

Wasn’t the next “detachment” , 2 kilometers behind, alerted when they heard the shots being discharged in the putting down of the mutiny?

Or did the separate detachments coordinate a preplanned mutiny?

Did they know what was waiting?

Of course the questions are all in vain. We are not expected to ask them, either. Like Stahlecker, we are supposed to just “follow the facts”.

As the Jaeger Report notes, some of the killing was carried out by Lithuanian "militia" and "partisans" even before Einsatzkommando 3 began its operations.

Jäger didn’t arrive at a “virgin soil” of mass murder. Still, the victims were “transportable” to a degree.

In Rokiskis, 3,207 (or 3,208) people “had to be transported 4.5 kilometers before they could be liquidated”.

And “transported” means “marching”; in Rokiskis “Jews, Jewesses and Jewish children” in detachments of 500, “at least” 2 kilometers apart, those behind hearing “at least” 500 shots fired at those preceding them at the “pit”.

“At least” 6 such detachments, walking 4.5 kilometers, to a pit, location unknown.

“Why do you ask?”

[Angelo]

Erik,

As yousual, lacking any convincing rationale to back up your skepticism
concerning the Jaeger Report, you start playing chinese shadows on the
board to mask your inability to justify such an attitude. And while your
realm looks really one of pure fantasy, I don't see what that has to
do with a lie like the following one:

Erik wrote:

have borrowed the expression from the KING of H&W (guess who!) who postulated such a realm to explain “the absolute plausible depiction of a reality” (your expression) of Human Soap Experiments at the Danzig Anatomical Institute.

In this case I just wonder if you've gone crazy or what. I read
more than once Roberto actually shredding to bits (sarcastically, of
course) those referring to such a "soap" episode, by remarking
it never reached the top in the Trials and thus their reference to it was only a futile
way to try to discredit the seriousness of the charges and the proceedings,
used, of course, by the revisionists that we know. (I can't remember
one of those passages now, but I'm pretty sure that was the
way he reacted to such idiocies.)


Now, when you play almost ridiculously with the fact that I consider
the Jaeger Report as just one of the many reports constituting the
"daily routine" of those killer-units and you just dress the ethereal
garments of "Alice in Wonderland" to emphasize that either I did not
recognize the atrocity of such "daily routine" or I KNEW more than
I wanted to tell, well, Erik, go back to your "wonderland" of preconceived
skepticism and see if you can gather up something more worth
of consideration than such funny arguments.

It's not my intention to be offensive to any one (unless offended first),
but spending hours and hours to answer plain nonsenses such as those
provided by your post, is not really much of an attractive choice.

Let's see just one:


Erik wrote:

The document supplied by Hans (thanks!) apparently supplies evidence that Jäger repeatedly went beyond instructions (”trotz gegenteiliger Zusage”) in his ambition to ”solve the Jewish question” (The document concerns the ”Endgiltige[sic] Lösung der Judenfrage”, final solution of the Jewish question”).

Jäger wrote to Stahlecker :

Quote:
In Lithuania, there are no more Jews, other than the Work Jews, including their families. They are:
In Schaulen around 4,500
In Kauen “ 15,000
In Wilna “ 15,000
I also wanted to kill these Work Jews, including their families, which however brought upon me acrimonious challenges from the civil administration (the Reichskommisar) and the army and caused the prohibition: the Work Jews and their families are not to be shot!
(side7 of the Report).

If the datings of the Jäger Report are reliable (“up to december 1, 1941”), then the “special measures” in Minsk against 630 Jews “fit for labour” (“Fachhandwerker”) ought to have taken place AFTER the “acrimonious challenges from the civil administration (the Reichkommisar)”, mentioned by Jäger. The “radio signal” is dated May –42, but doesn’t date the “Sonderbehandlungen” that were undertaken against orders.

Jäger was obviously aware of such orders for the preservation of “working Jews and Jewesses”.

And then again he ignored them.

“Holocaust-history” (prepared by Daniel Keren) comments:
Quote:
Those who were spared for slave labor were not to survive either; Jaeger writes (see eighth page, second paragraph from below, ending with "liquidieren"):
"These working Jews and Jewesses still available are needed urgently and I can envisage that after the winter this workforce will be required even more urgently. I am of the view that the sterilization program of the male worker Jews should be started immediately so that reproduction is prevented. If despite sterilization a Jewess becomes pregnant she will be liquidated."
http://www.holocaust-history.org/works/ ... tro000.htm

Jäger seemed to be looking for pretexts to kill. Since both male and female Jews would be sterilized according to the desired ”program”, a Jewess pregnant ”despite” the program would provide ample occasions to kill non-Jews, for ”Rassenschande” perhaps, i.e. illegal ”fornication” with race ”aliens”.

Jäger didn’t mind:

Quote:
Blatt 3:

Monat September: 1.9.41 Mariampole 1763 Juden, 1812 Jüdinnen, 1404 Judenkinder, 109 Geistes- kranke, 1 deutsche Staatsangehörige, die mit einem Juden verheiratet war, 1 Russin.
(My emphasis).

Hilberg wrote:

Quote:
With Romania and Bulgaria already out of reach, transport breaking down, Jewish laborers desperately needed in war industry, and Jews in mixed marriages exempt, the destruction process was nearing its conclusion. In November 1944, Himmler had decided that for practical purposes the Jewish question had been solved.On the twenty-fifth of that month he ordered the dismantling of the killing installations.[...]

Raul Hilberg, The Destruction of the European Jews, student edition, Holmes & Meier 85, page 252
(my emphasis).

A German citizen was killed, since (?) she was married to a Jew.

Jäger obviously wasn’t a “stickler for legality”, although he described himself as follows:

Quote:
After his arrest by the German Police, the former SS-Standartenfuehrer Karl Jaeger defended himself by stating:

"I was always a person with a heightened sense of duty"


Such a ”sense” can be ”heightened” above both ”law and order”, seemingly. At least when doing duty for the SS.

Again, you don't even seem to be able to discern how to avoid arguments
that rather than strengthening your fancy ideas, they actually help me
to label them as such.

1) That document is the BEST EVIDENCE that the Jaeger Report is authentic. In other words, the hatred for the Jews had reached such a
paranoid level that Jaeger and the likes of him wouldn't give a dirty
sock of a damn whether one was work-fit or not, he just had to be
butchered cause he was a Jew! PERIOD!

2) You're now childlishly running away from your original CONTENTION
that the Jaeger Report's authenticity was all but certain, to open up
your beloved scenario of whether we should credit the Holocaust as
historically happened or not. THAT'S WHERE YOU WANTED TO GET TO!

Well, why lose so much time, saying one nonsense after the other to
simply repropose your DECREPIT LULLABY about your right to question
everything instead of just giving anything for granted.
I did it before you even started, maybe. And all of those who came before
me did it, probably much better than I could ever do, so nobody is depriving you to do it yourself. But try to stick to the thread and not open
up strategically designed "what if's" which are not simply needed in our case.

Your technique is always the same: come out with any kind of nonsense
running through your mind, get someone to respond to such a nonsense,
start departing from it the best you can and finally get to the "Holocaust"
in its general implications to conclude that it can't be proved or accepted
in view of the extraordinary amount of nonsenses you started out with.
Quite funny

Your dissertation may be even funny at times, but it just shows you don't
have a single GOOD REASON to back up your suspicions on that report.

Angelo

[Scott Smith]

I read more than once Roberto actually shredding to bits (sarcastically, of course) those referring to such a "soap" episode, by remarking it never reached the top in the Trials and thus their reference to it was only a futile way to try to discredit the seriousness of the charges and the proceedings, used, of course, by the revisionists that we know.

Not to get things off-topic but it is only important that people were or were-not charged to the victims themselves, and to the persons who might be charged of course, in a NORMAL trial.

With a show-trial however the objective is to generate good Greuelpropaganda. And this was done! People still refer to the Nuremberg trials and Human Soap in the same breath. It was proved, you see. And you can go a law library and pick up the hefty 1946 volumes and read about stalwart Soviet prosecutor Smirnov introducing the Human Soap into evidence (USSR-393) and so on. Of course, nobody but Comrade Smirnov verified that it was really Human Soap and that it really came from the Germans but there you have it!

It is an easily demolished lie, of course--one that is only believed by True Believers like Chuck--but the Big Lies are the most believable. That's why it makes such good atrocity-Copy.

[Erik]

Angelo wrote:

In this case I just wonder if you've gone crazy or what.

Roberto wrote on the ”Soap” thread:

Strange things are bound to happen in the minds of people operating a system of exploitation and mass murder where even the victims' dead bodies are taken advantage off (gold teeth, hair, ashes etc.).

I don't see why, in such a realm of madness, one or the other madman should not have tried something like manufacturing soap from human fat.
Nothing that I would consider spectacular.

http://www.thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/v ... 3439#53439

In a “realm of madness”, nothing is “spectacular”, unless you have “gone crazy or what”.

The ”Soap” thread starts here, if you’re interested:
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/v ... sc&start=0

Again, you don't even seem to be able to discern how to avoid arguments
that rather than strengthening your fancy ideas, they actually help me
to label them as such.

1) That document is the BEST EVIDENCE that the Jaeger Report is authentic. In other words, the hatred for the Jews had reached such a
paranoid level that Jaeger and the likes of him wouldn't give a dirty
sock of a damn whether one was work-fit or not, he just had to be
butchered cause he was a Jew! PERIOD!

Well, it was a “she”, actually. Here is the passage in English translation:

Sept. 1, 41
Mariampole 1,763 Jews, 1,812 Jewesses, 1,404 Jewish children,
109 mentally ill, 1 fem. German national who was married to a Jew, 1 fem. Russian 5,090

Who cares, as long as it as Jew, right? Not Jäger, not Stahlecker, not…. But then it WASN’T a Jew! She was MARRIED to a Jew!!

You are not able to “discern” when you “label”, but Jäger certainly was a helluva “discerner” when he “labeled” his “dastardly” deeds.

Why provide a document that gives a (quote)BEST EVIDENCE(unquote) to an act that would give himself and his superiors and his organisation a bad name to any “German national”?

A “realm of madness” must be postulated?

2) You're now childlishly running away from your original CONTENTION
that the Jaeger Report's authenticity was all but certain, to open up
your beloved scenario of whether we should credit the Holocaust as
historically happened or not. THAT'S WHERE YOU WANTED TO GET TO!

Sounds crazy to me, but you found me out, didn’t you?

Of course, you are right in a way. I would certainly want the Holocaust not to have happened. I find nothing wonderful or beautiful in the mass graves and the gas chambers. It would be a great relief to me and human kind if it could be shown to be a myth.

Does this make me a “denier”? An driveling moronic “reproposer” of a “decrepit lullaby”? (see below), instead of a stern “follower of facts”?

Or a wannabe knower? A "dunnoer"?

But then again there is the Jäger Report. Fact upon fact, side up side down. A Gospel of Truth.

Quote: For the layman, the Jaeger Report - with its precise and dispassionate account of mass murder - helps to make the cold-blooded, premeditated killing of over one million human beings by the Einsatzgruppen a horrifying reality.

Still:

"Jaeger's report is only several pages long, but for cold-blooded horror, for a mind-boggling depravity that leaves one stunned and incredulous at the ordered recording of such atrocities, this report is without equal in all of the Einsatzgruppen reports".

The “stunnedness” and “incredulity” must be mastered in some way, in order to let the Report “help” you to its “horrifying reality”?

What help can I expect? From Angelo, Roberto, witness, Mr Bunch et al?

Must I seek medical care to get back my sense of “reality”?

“Can you help me, Doc? I can’t believe in the Jäger Report!”

Well, why lose so much time, saying one nonsense after the other to
simply repropose your DECREPIT LULLABY about your right to question
everything instead of just giving anything for granted.
I did it before you even started, maybe. And all of those who came before
me did it, probably much better than I could ever do, so nobody is depriving you to do it yourself. But try to stick to the thread and not open
up strategically designed "what if's" which are not simply needed in our case.

I try to. I even read the report. Cite it. Crazy, isn’t it?

Your technique is always the same: come out with any kind of nonsense
running through your mind, get someone to respond to such a nonsense,
start departing from it the best you can and finally get to the "Holocaust"
in its general implications to conclude that it can't be proved or accepted
in view of the extraordinary amount of nonsenses you started out with.
Quite funny.

From “crazy or what” to “funny”.

…and finally get to the "Holocaust"
in its general implications to conclude that it can't be proved or accepted
in view of the extraordinary amount of nonsenses you started out with.

From Erik back to “topic”, is that it?

THAT'S WHERE YOU WANTED TO GET TO!

Right!

[Angelo]

I read more than once Roberto actually shredding to bits (sarcastically, of course) those referring to such a "soap" episode, by remarking it never reached the top in the Trials and thus their reference to it was only a futile way to try to discredit the seriousness of the charges and the proceedings, used, of course, by the revisionists that we know.

Not to get things off-topic but it is only important that people were or were-not charged to the victims themselves, and to the persons who might be charged of course, in a NORMAL trial.

With a show-trial however the objective is to generate good Greuelpropaganda. And this was done! People still refer to the Nuremberg trials and Human Soap in the same breath. It was proved, you see. And you can go a law library and pick up the hefty 1946 volumes and read about stalwart Soviet prosecutor Smirnov introducing the Human Soap into evidence (USSR-393) and so on. Of course, nobody but Comrade Smirnov verified that it was really Human Soap and that it really came from the Germans but there you have it!

It is an easily demolished lie, of course--one that is only believed by True Believers like Chuck--but the Big Lies are the most believable. That's why it makes such good atrocity-Copy.

Scott,
There you are again with your "Show Trial" opening. It must be something of a cliche, I guess.

Well, one that goes to dig into such matters, whether in a library or up here, is supposed to be able to tell a presentation of a document for
evidence from a final decision of the court in relation to the topics covered
by that document.

Also, the way Erik purported the soap bit sounded like Roberto gave it
more credit than it deserved, which, to the best of my knowledge, did
never happen.

As to Chuck, I never read any of his posters on the soap topic, and so I just can't say anything about it.

Angelo

[Charles Bunch]

I read more than once Roberto actually shredding to bits (sarcastically, of course) those referring to such a "soap" episode, by remarking it never reached the top in the Trials and thus their reference to it was only a futile way to try to discredit the seriousness of the charges and the proceedings, used, of course, by the revisionists that we know.

Not to get things off-topic but it is only important that people were or were-not charged to the victims themselves, and to the persons who might be charged of course, in a NORMAL trial.

If anyone can can decipher this gibberish, let me know.

With a show-trial however the objective is to generate good Greuelpropaganda. And this was done!

Smith repeats his same mindless mouthings!

He has yet to demonstrate how the Nuremberg trials resemble in any way "show trials".

People still refer to the Nuremberg trials and Human Soap in the same breath.

The people who refer to it almost incessantly are deniers!!

It was proved, you see.

No one has said any such thing.

The Nuremberg trials were not concerned about proving the historical factuality of every possible Nazi crime against humanity.

Persuasive evidence of the making of soap from human fat at the Danzig Anatomical Institute was presented. Deniers like Smith deny that evidence, because they don't want the Nazis to be seen in a bad light.

It is an easily demolished lie, of course--one that is only believed by True Believers like Chuck--but the Big Lies are the most believable. That's why it makes such good atrocity-Copy.

If it were an easily demolished lie than even Mr. Smith could do so!

But like the dog returning to his vomit, Mr. Smith would prefer to utter the same baseless lies over and over again, running from one as soon as he has been embarrassed, only to return when his vomit is cold.

Such is the life of the mindless denier!

[Angelo]

Angelo wrote:

In this case I just wonder if you've gone crazy or what.

Roberto wrote on the ”Soap” thread:

Strange things are bound to happen in the minds of people operating a system of exploitation and mass murder where even the victims' dead bodies are taken advantage off (gold teeth, hair, ashes etc.).

I don't see why, in such a realm of madness, one or the other madman should not have tried something like manufacturing soap from human fat.
Nothing that I would consider spectacular.

http://www.thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/v ... 3439#53439

In a “realm of madness”, nothing is “spectacular”, unless you have “gone crazy or what”.

The ”Soap” thread starts here, if you’re interested:
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/v ... sc&start=0


Ok, Eric, when it was demonstrated that those Nazi killers did not
spare even the children, there would be no real wonder if they were
proven guilty of making soap out of corpses.
I don't see any problem here, at all.
What I got from your previous poster was the idea that you wanted
to stress that Roberto gave the soap topic a greater relevance than it
actually had. One thing is putting the whole matter within the range
of possibilities, which is what he did, and another is to support it as
a proven fact, which is what your previous poster made me believe.
And this is due to your idiotic way of mixing together words coming from
one source with another, which is not certainly a good way to keep
things clear.
Here is your previous post:
Erik wrote:

have borrowed the expression from the KING of H&W (guess who!) who postulated such a realm to explain “the absolute plausible depiction of a reality” (your expression) of Human Soap Experiments at the Danzig Anatomical Institute.

What makes it misleading is simply your coupling the word "reality"
to the rest of the paragraph. Roberto never used the word "REALITY"
as the whole thing reached the stage of "POSSIBILITY" and the
whole paragraph was written in the hypothetical form as I myself would
have done. My advice: avoid patching words from one author, even if
indicated within brackets) directly to other words from another one
to make up paragraphs reflecting your own mind contorsions, and not
the authentic thoughts of the authors.

So I'll limit myself to tell you that you DID NOT provide a single
evidence that justifies your fantasies, just keeping on playing your
chinese shadows parade, but that doesn't help much to give your
suspicions a shade of something more conspicuous.

Angelo[/b]

[Scott Smith]

If it were an easily demolished lie than even Mr. Smith could do so!

Smith (with the assistance of a few others) already did so.

But Chuckoo, you are invited to start another thread presenting your soap-fantasy evidence, if you think you can. Maybe you can enlist some Bow-Dung alumni to help you out a bit this time.

[Erik]

Angelo wrote:

Ok, Eric, when it was demonstrated that those Nazi killers did not
spare even the children, there would be no real wonder if they were
proven guilty of making soap out of corpses.
I don't see any problem here, at all.

You did once, remember?

Aside from the QUITE CLEAR CLASSIFICATION, which is a constant of
all such papers and which doesn't allow your assumptions as being
grounded, how would the CHILDREN be justified ? They too were "Jews
captured while performing partisan or anyway anti-German activities" ?

http://www.thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/v ... 650#107650

Why those children? Why these thousands upon thousands Jews marching along with their children to pits some of them had to dig for their people to “solve the Jewish question” against orders and “practical policies”?

“Demonstrated” by reports that ignored the instructions to use a “Tarnsprache” of “Sonderbehandlung”, that couldn’t hide the “Mongol connection” of the German war in the East to the world:

August 24, 1941
In a radio broadcast, British Prime Minister Winston S. Churchill denounced the Nazi mass killings in Russia:
[W]hole districts are being exterminated. Scores of thousands -- literally scores of thousands -- of executions in cold blood are being perpetrated by the German police-troops upon the Russian patriots who defend their native soil. Since the Mongol invasions of Europe in the sixteenth century, there has never been methodical, merciless butchery on such a scale, or approaching such a scale. (Gilbert Holo 186)

http://www.thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/v ... 479#105479

And since this is “demonstrated” by documents such as the Jäger Report, “there would be no real wonder if they were proven guilty of making soap out of corpses”.

And that’s the way it goes.

One realm of madness proves another. From report to receipt. And vice versa.

What I got from your previous poster was the idea that you wanted
to stress that Roberto gave the soap topic a greater relevance than it
actually had. One thing is putting the whole matter within the range
of possibilities, which is what he did, and another is to support it as
a proven fact, which is what your previous poster made me believe.
And this is due to your idiotic way of mixing together words coming from
one source with another, which is not certainly a good way to keep
things clear.

The towering absence of Roberto from the Forum at the moment makes it inpolite to discuss his views, but of course I’m to blame for that. I wanted to explain an expression of his (“realm of madness”), a “figure of thought” or postulate, that opens the doors of perception to new insights of the “I don't see any problem here, at all” order, or an “open, Sesame” to the world of the Holocaust.

As you wrote earlier:

Now, when you play almost ridiculously with the fact that I consider
the Jaeger Report as just one of the many reports constituting the
"daily routine" of those killer-units and you just dress the ethereal
garments of "Alice in Wonderland" to emphasize that either I did not
recognize the atrocity of such "daily routine" or I KNEW more than
I wanted to tell, well, Erik, go back to your "wonderland" of preconceived
skepticism and see if you can gather up something more worth
of consideration than such funny arguments.

Well, I guess that “dress” is meant to be a “good way to keep things clear”. The Jäger Report fits into that realm, once you “know” the “fact” of it. Just all in a day’s work. Alice herself wouldn’t wonder.

What makes it misleading is simply your coupling the word "reality"
to the rest of the paragraph. Roberto never used the word "REALITY"
as the whole thing reached the stage of "POSSIBILITY" and the
whole paragraph was written in the hypothetical form as I myself would
have done.

And it all leads to the stage of the “I don't see any problem here, at all” – order, right?

My advice: avoid patching words from one author, even if
indicated within brackets) directly to other words from another one
to make up paragraphs reflecting your own mind contorsions, and not
the authentic thoughts of the authors.

If you were able to “indicate within brackets”, at least!

And besides, I wasn’t too wrong, after all, was I? The “POSSIBILITY” turns out to be a sort of “REALITY”, doesn’t it? The reality of “no problem”, once the “realm of madness” becomes “the authentic thoughts of the authors”.

So I'll limit myself to tell you that you DID NOT provide a single
evidence that justifies your fantasies, just keeping on playing your
chinese shadows parade, but that doesn't help much to give your
suspicions a shade of something more conspicuous.

Is that the only problem you can find with the Jäger Report? I.e., none “at all”?

[Angelo]

Re: ERIK's Post

Posted: Sat Dec 28, 2002 1:10 am

NOW ERIK, here's the EVIDENCE you just DON'T UNDERSTAND what you're reading.

Angelo wrote:

Ok, Eric, when it was demonstrated that those Nazi killers did not spare even the children, there would be no real wonder if they were proven guilty of making soap out of corpses.
I don't see any problem here, at all.

Erik wrote:

You did once, remember?

Angelo, as quoted by Erik, ONCE wrote:

Aside from the QUITE CLEAR CLASSIFICATION, which is a constant of
all such papers and which doesn't allow your assumptions as being
grounded, how would the CHILDREN be justified ? They too were "Jews
captured while performing partisan or anyway anti-German activities" ?

NOW WHAT DID I DO ONCE? I just stated that the CLASSIFICATION DOESN'T ALLOW your assumptions AS BEING GROUNDED which if I'm
not dead stoned MEANS that your ASSUMPTIONS about the NON-AUTHENTICITY (or probable non-authenticity) of THAT REPORT ARE NOT
GROUNDED, that is BASED, SUPPORTED, BACKED-UP, SUSTAINED, FOUNDED, ROOTED, or whatever other possible wording may suit you
as long as MEANING that SUCH ASSUMPTIONS OF YOURS were deemed
by me as IRRELEVANT, NOT PROVING anything else than your personal
opinions. You are FREE to say anything you like BUT PLEASE LEARN TO
READ!

Angelo