Warsaw Uprising

Discussions on WW2 in Eastern Europe.
Art
Forum Staff
Posts: 7041
Joined: 04 Jun 2004 19:49
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: Warsaw Uprising

Post by Art » 05 Oct 2008 13:05

wojtop79 wrote:My knowledge of the document comes from Jan Nowak-Jezioranski article "Spór o Powstanie Warszawskie"in "Kultura" 1/568-2/569. He describes the plan as Zukov/Rokossovsky's initiative. After giving the details of the plan he continues "Rejecting by Stalin the plan to continue the offensive towards Berlin had grave results". He doesn't mention how (no source) he came to conclusion that Stalin actually rejected it.
As I know no documental sources on the fate of this document have been published. Sometimes the conslusion is made that Stalin gave no response to this plan just because no response (either positive or negative) was found but that is like saying that the Higgs boson doesn't exist because it haven't been registered by now. It's possible that Stalin talked with Zhukov or Rokossovsky by phone, in that case a record of the conversation could never exist. I would say that digging the archival records of the staff of the 1st Belorussian could probably shed some light on this matter.
I never read a reliable explanation to this fact. It is often claimed that Red Army needed a lot of time to prepare for the next phase of offensive, but in view of Zukhov and Rokossovsky plan it is obvious that 3 weeks was sufficient.
Provided that bridgeads over Narew were captured by 20th August. In reality Rokossovsky's forces made it only in early September. By that time (namely on 29th August) the Stavka ordered to halt active operations on the central part of the front between Neman and Carpathians. As concerns the 1st Belorussian it was ordered on that day to stop offensive after seizig bridgeheads north of Narew, and part of its forces were withdrawn to Stavka's reserve. There are indications that they returned to discussing the "large" Warsaw plan in mid-September, but that time it was rejected by Rokossovsky and consequently the more limited goal of seizing a bridgehead in Warsaw was adopted.
It is sometimes said that German counterattacks stoped the offensive.
It would be more correct to say that the offensive wasn't stopped but continued throughout August, but very slowly. It took more than a month to cover distance from Siedlce to Narew. Based on after-knowledge I'm prone to think that Zhukov and Rokossvsky wer overoptimistic in their calculations.
No Red Army units took part in the landing.
The after-action report signed by Berling says that the landing was supported by the following Soviet units: a brigade of 203-mm howitzers and then the 6th Breakthrough Artillery Division, 274th Special Purpose Motorized Battalion (amphibious cars), 31 and 77 Chemical Battalions. Probably Berling means in his memoirs that there were no Soviet infantry units, that it's indeed correct. There are a lot of unclear things in this landing, but the impression I've got that the decision to use Polish troops for landing was mainly political.

User avatar
henryk
Member
Posts: 2559
Joined: 27 Jan 2004 01:11
Location: London, Ontario

Re: Warsaw Uprising

Post by henryk » 05 Oct 2008 21:20

Art said:
henryk wrote:
From where was the first carried? By which units? What happened? Was it an approved action?
The crossing was performed by elements of Polish 1st and 2nd Infatry divisions near Deblin on 1st August 1944. The units that crossed Vistula consisted of three infantry battalions and two companies and they were partly dislodged from their bridgehead by German counterattacks. See the info on Polish losses here:
viewtopic.php?p=1095706#p1095706
The crossing was made according to an order, of course, it was a part of a more general crossing operation by the left wing of the 1st Belorussian. In general it was a limited scale setback, but anyway unpleasant.
But this crossing was not in support of the Warsaw Uprising, but a continuation of operations prior to 1 Aug.
These two maps show that Soviet units were on the left bank of the Vistula south of Warsaw. But this location was not used to support the Uprising, nor another further south. The two maps show nothing was done south of Warsaw until 1945.
Operations 22 June to 19 Aug 44:
ftp://mapy.ziomal.org/mapy/Militarne/II ... wiie30.jpg
Operations 19 Aug to 31 Dec 44:
ftp://mapy.ziomal.org/mapy/Militarne/II ... wiie31.jpg
Maps cropped from originals posted in edited message.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Last edited by henryk on 06 Oct 2008 19:41, edited 1 time in total.

Art
Forum Staff
Posts: 7041
Joined: 04 Jun 2004 19:49
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: Warsaw Uprising

Post by Art » 06 Oct 2008 10:47

henryk wrote: But this crossing was not in support of the Warsaw Uprising, but a continuation of operations prior to 1 Aug.
Yes, of course. I didn't intend to create impression that the crossing was somehow connected with the uprisng.

Piotr Kapuscinski
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 3724
Joined: 12 Jul 2006 19:17
Location: Poland

Re: Warsaw Uprising

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 08 Oct 2008 15:59

George Orwell about the Warsaw Uprising - his words from 1st of September 1944:

"I would like to protest against mean and cowardly attitude of the British press towards the uprising in Warsaw [...]. In general an impression was created, that the Poles deserve to be beaten, even though they were doing exactly all of this, to which allies broadcasting stations were calling them for several years […]. This is my message for leftist journalists and for intelligence – in general. Remember, that one always pays for his dishonesty and cowardice. Don’t even think, that for years on end you will be shoes licking servants of the Soviet regime, and then suddenly you will return to the spiritual decency.”

Stalin’s telegram to Roosevelt and Churchill – 22nd of August 1944:

"Sooner or later the truth about the group of criminalists, who, in order to gain power, started the Warsaw’s brawl – will be known for everyone”.

Churchill – 27th of February 1945 – comment on the results of Jalta conferention:

“Marschal Stalin and the Soviet Union gave the most solemn declarations in the case of remaining the fully sovereign, independent Poland […]. I do not know any other government, which would keep its obligations more reliably, even against itself, than the Russian Soviet government.”

15th of March 1945 – Roosevelt speaks to Anthony Eden:

“Great world powers will decide what belongs to Poland […] I have no intention at all […] to bargain with Poland or other small countries.”

Top-Secret message of Stalin to Michał Rola-Żymierski, member of “legal, independent and democratic” government of Poland, which was "supported by the whole society", opposition to which was “band of criminalists from the Home Army” – Autumn of 1944:

“As I so-so look on your work, then – if not the Red Army – after a weak there would be no you at all […] And what if the Red Army will march further to the West and also Polish forces with it ? With whom you would stay then [in Poland] ?”
15th of March 1945 – Roosevelt speaks to Anthony Eden:

“Great world powers will decide what belongs to Poland […] I have no intention at all […] to bargain with Poland or other small countries.”
Structure of population of the Second Republic of Poland according to native languages of inhabitants:

Native languages of citizens in voivodeships of Poland in 1931 - according to national census from 1931:

Image

Eastern Voivodeships of Poland (taken back from Poland by USSR in 1945):

Wileńskie Voivodeship (capital city - Wilno):

60% - Polish
23% - Belarusian
8% - Yiddish
3% - Russian
6% - Other or not given (including Lithuanian - less than 1%)

Lwowskie Voivodeship (capital city - Lwów):

58% - Polish
34% - Ukrainian
8% - Yiddish

Nowogrodzkie Voivodeship (capital city - Nowogródek):

53% - Polish
39% - Belarusian
7% - Yiddish
1% - Russian

Tarnopolskie Voivodeship (capital city - Tarnopol):

49% - Polish
46% - Ukrainian
5% - Yiddish

Poleskie Voivodeship (capital city - Brześć):

14% - Polish
10% - Yiddish
5% - Ukrainian
6% - Belarusian
2% - Russian
63% - Other or not given (the mast majority is "Local")

Stanisławowskie Voivodeship (capital city – Stanisławów):

69% - Ukrainian
23% - Polish
7% - Yiddish
1% - German

Wołyńskie Voivodeship (capital city – Łuck):

68% - Ukrainian
17% - Polish
10% - Yiddish
2% - German
1% - Russian
2% - Other or not given

Calluna
Member
Posts: 6
Joined: 07 Dec 2006 22:54
Location: Netherlands

Re: Warsaw Uprising

Post by Calluna » 04 Nov 2016 07:09

Hi,
You stated that 19.Panzer Division was involved in the killing of 'most of the murdered 63.000 civilians'. Currently I am writing a book about this division. I am very interested in your "source of truth". During my investigation I cannot find evidence which confirms that 19.Panzer-Division was actively involved in systematic killing of civilians. The 19.PzDiv has no track record of doing such things. Individual incidents may have occured but I found nothing related to the things the Kaminski and Dirlewanger Brigade did. Yes, 19.PzDiv was ordered to repress the uprising after the "partisan movement" was asked to surrender and after thousands of civilians left the battle zone. So the 19.PzDiv attacked the partisans (and maybe civilians which did not leave, in my opion that makes these civilians partisans) who did not surrender.
Regards,
Dennis

GregSingh
Member
Posts: 3879
Joined: 21 Jun 2012 01:11
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Warsaw Uprising

Post by GregSingh » 04 Nov 2016 09:21

What I can read is that a certain number of civilians was killed during the Warsaw uprising.
And that 19.PzD was one of the units happened to be there at some point.
But nobody suggested that "19.Panzer Division was involved in the killing of 'most of the murdered 63.000 civilians'" ?

I wonder what's your sources for this claim:
"19.PzDiv was ordered to repress the uprising after the "partisan movement" was asked to surrender and after thousands of civilians left the battle zone"
19.PzDiv was never ordered to repress the uprising to my knowledge.
After taking part in battles with Soviet tank units east of Warsaw, division was ordered to move to Magnuszew bridgehead area. Only available way was through Warsaw (bridge over Vistula river). So 19.PzDiv had to 'cut through' some resistance controlled area and undoubtedly caused some civilian casualties. There are several sources mentioning that episode, it was during 2-4 of August.

User avatar
michalst
Member
Posts: 340
Joined: 05 Mar 2006 21:06
Location: Oslo/Norway

Re: Warsaw Uprising

Post by michalst » 04 Nov 2016 11:42

19 PzDiv took part in the uprising. In the begining of August (as mentioned here) and also at the end

Jan-Hendrik
Member
Posts: 8708
Joined: 11 Nov 2004 12:53
Location: Hohnhorst / Deutschland

Re: Warsaw Uprising

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 24 Nov 2018 09:16


User avatar
tigre
Member
Posts: 10567
Joined: 20 Mar 2005 11:48
Location: Argentina

Re: Warsaw Uprising

Post by tigre » 28 Feb 2022 17:23

Hello to all :D; some complement................................

Allied Air drops - Warsaw 1944.

The only real help for the fighters was the air drops in containers on parachutes by allied aircraft taking off from bases in southern Italy and Great Britain. The flights were extremely exhausting, dificult and dangerous for the airmen from Poland, the USA and from the British Empire. At least 220 lost their life. Nevertheless, during the Uprising, 306 allied aircraft dropped on the fighting city 159 tons of weaponry, medicines and provisions.

Source: Warsaw Uprising 1944. Battle for Poland

It was that way? Cheers. Raúl M 8-).
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Return to “WW2 in Eastern Europe”