Soviet bombings, from occupied Estonia during the winter war

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Tero
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Post by Tero » 29 Aug 2007 11:28

Juha Tompuri wrote:Hi BP,
BP wrote:As for location of Soviet aircraft units in Estonia during the Winter [Soviet-Finnish] war and exact number of sorties against Finland from Estonian territory - I saw the good online article on Russian about this last week, need to find it again.....
That would be very interesting.

BP wrote: IIRC Russian sources describe Great Patriotic war as the war for freedom of USSR against nazi Germany and allies of Germany.
...and the list of the German allies can be found here: http://www.axishistory.com/

Regards, Juha
Incidentaly, should't the title "Equipment received from Germany" be altered to "Equipment bought from Germany" given the fact the only items received without any price tag attached were AFAIK the DO-17Z's ?

Just wondering........

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Post by Tapani K. » 29 Aug 2007 18:14

Do you remember this:
http://formin.finland.fi/Public/default ... ture=fi-FI

Here is an English-language summary of President Ilves' speech:
http://www.president.ee/en/duties/?gid=90953
This summary does not mention that president Ilves apologicized fir the fact that Soviet airpalnes used Estonian ases for the attacks against Finland.

regards,
Tapani K.

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Post by BIGpanzer » 29 Aug 2007 18:50

Juha wrote:
BP wrote:
As for location of Soviet aircraft units in Estonia during the Winter [Soviet-Finnish] war and exact number of sorties against Finland from Estonian territory - I saw the good online article on Russian about this last week, need to find it again.....
That would be very interesting.
I will try to find it again and translate.

I found quite interesting mention that many Soviet officers knew the real state of things in Baltic states that time. For example, battalion commissar G. Ikonnikov told his cadets during the lection that: "We made military pressure against Estonia and gave only several hours ultimatum that Soviet army occupied Estonia in the case if Estonia didn't accept our terms. After such ultimatum Estonian minister of foreign affairs flew to Moscow to sign the pact. In my opinion, the entrance of Red Army into Baltic States is similar to such example - to allow your friend to live in your appartments who occupied one room at first, then the whole appartment and drive you out from the appartments as the result." No need to mention that battalion commissar G. Ikonnikov was arrested by NKVD just after the lection.....

I've read also somewhere that Swedish radio intercept service provided Finnish side with the info from encoded messages of Soviet Air Force. Quite often the corresponding Soviet orders and other messages were encoded and sent to Finns even before Soviet bombers took off from Latvian and Estonian airfields [20 min of flight to Helsinki], so Finnish authorities of towns had time to alert about air raids. Any more and exact details, please.

Regards, BP
Last edited by BIGpanzer on 29 Aug 2007 22:50, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Soviet bombings, from occupied Estonia during the winter

Post by Juha Tompuri » 29 Aug 2007 20:51

Art wrote:
janner wrote: For example, is the first strike on Helsinki classed as a failed Seek and Destroy mission against the Finnish Navy which dropped its munitions on the Captial on the return leg, or a deliberate attack on Helsinki?
don't know exactly. In principle it showld be classified in accordance with the target ultimately chosen - i.e. as the raid against the city.
From the (selective, Soviet era) memoirs (which I "found" while searching info about the shooting down the Finnish Ju-52 passenger plane Kaleva ) of one of the pilots, Petr Hohlov, that took part to the Helsinki raid:
Babelfish translation ( feel free to correct):
... the morning on 30 November, 1939, steeply changed the customary rhythm of our life. Began war with the White Finns. Is declared operations order - to approach target. But weather - nonflying. Abundant snow fell out within the night, with thick layer covered landing area. Visibility does not exceed kilometer. Large skill was required, in order to detach combat vehicles with the total gross weight away from the earth. First taxis to the start our, flag, aircraft. Green rocket, and it heavily descends from the place. For long it runs through the starting strip. It seems that it will not be sufficient, it is necessary to be rolled beyond the limits of landing area. But no, my fears are useless. The skillful hands of Tokarev skillfully tear off aircraft from the earth, and it gains altitude. And so, component after the component, all combat vehicles, after rising into air, are attached to that leading. The takeoff of the second squadron began on the airfield. To our general disappointment, one of its aircraft with the takeoff did not maintain takeoff heading, it unrolled by 90 degrees to the right, were struck against the obstacle and exploded together with the bombs and the crew. We saw this from air. Immediately was spoiled mood, but thought about the fact that the war goes on and the fulfillment of combat mission is in prospect for us, everything was placed on its places. Under us flashed under us flashed cape Ustinskiy - We fly above the Gulf of Finland to the West. Continuous cumulus clouds are forced against water. Snow at times goes. We under the very edge of clouds, go around those places, where the cloudiness descends to the water. Nikolai Alexandrovich communicated to me: if cloudiness is lowered to 100 it is meter, we will return to its airfield. To break through upward in the system of squadron is dangerous, yes even to sense from this it will be little: because of the clouds we will not find Battleship. Approximately cloudiness sharply was reduced in the hour of flight, their lower edge rose. In that part of the Gulf of Finland, where yet not there was ice, were visible large gray waves with those boiling with foam by the apexes, which will sparkle in the flat sun rays. Precise data about the place of Battleship in the sea we not had. We are forced to search for it in the skerry region Of the alandskeye islands. Here many small rock reefs, similar aboard the large ships, they strongly hamper search. We already more than hour fly, but there is no Battleship all and no. Command did not establish alternate target for our impact. Before the onset of dark remained not more than an hour. It was necessary to decide, where to fly in order to drop bombs and to return to its airfield. My question commander, to what alternate target let us go, Nikolai Alexandrovich rapidly answered: to the very important... According to our aircraft the antiaircraft artillery of enemy conducted fire, from behind above swelled the caps of shell bursts. But we left to the selected purpose. Commander was contented by the results of the impact of squadron, several times on the intercom told me that it has value which is not smaller, than sinking the Battleship of coast defense. They returned before dawn to the airfield. All aircraft produced normal landing, and began the interrogation of crews for the fulfillment of combat mission. For Nikolai Alexandrovich Tokarev it was necessary to report about the results of departure not only to the command of regiment, but also commanding of the Air Force KBF
emphasis on mine
http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/hohlov_pi/01.html

Regards, Juha

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Re: Soviet bombings, from occupied Estonia during the winter

Post by Art » 30 Aug 2007 09:20

Juha Tompuri wrote: But how many of the N-W Front sorties were against the South Finland?
Also...how to determine "Southern Finland"
A good question. Should we consider the objects of attacks shown on the map as situated in the South Finland?
Image
The 75-aircraft strong 10 AB was now (19th Dec-39, JT) able to practically daily bomb Finnish ports in Gulf of Bothnia and the western part of Gulf of Finland (Turku, Uusikaupunki, Rauma Pori Kaskö, Kristinestad, Vaasa, Hangö, Ekenes etc.)
According to the essay on the history of the Soviet Fleet aviation 10 ABr had 24 SB, 12 DB-3, and 30 fighters when it was organized. There were also some number of recon seaplanes stationed in Estonia at the start of the hostilities. Added to the beforementioned numbers they can give 75 planes or the close figure. I'm more interested in whether 10 ABr recieved any additional units after mid-December. The number of atacks made against finish targets is of interst too.
AFAIK in the last months of the war
Mainly in mid-February and later, i.e. in the last month.

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Re: Soviet bombings, from occupied Estonia during the winter

Post by Juha Tompuri » 30 Aug 2007 20:08

Art wrote:
Juha Tompuri wrote: But how many of the N-W Front sorties were against the South Finland?
Also...how to determine "Southern Finland"
A good question. Should we consider the objects of attacks shown on the map as situated in the South Finland?
Image
Very difficult to say.
I really don't know what the author of the article AndersG posted ment with the "Southern Finland"
I personally would count areas up to Mikkeli as S-Finland
Kuopio as central or E-Finland
Joensuu , Savonlinna and Sortavala to E-Finland
Käkisalmi to either E- or S-Finland
For some reasons the map lacks the W-Finland cities like Uusikaupunki, Rauma, Pori, Kaskö, Kristinestad and Vaasa.
Art wrote:
The 75-aircraft strong 10 AB was now (19th Dec-39, JT) able to practically daily bomb Finnish ports in Gulf of Bothnia and the western part of Gulf of Finland (Turku, Uusikaupunki, Rauma Pori Kaskö, Kristinestad, Vaasa, Hangö, Ekenes etc.)
According to the essay on the history of the Soviet Fleet aviation 10 ABr had 24 SB, 12 DB-3, and 30 fighters when it was organized. There were also some number of recon seaplanes stationed in Estonia at the start of the hostilities. Added to the beforementioned numbers they can give 75 planes or the close figure.
I must say that a babelfish translation of that article revealed nearly untolerable amount of mistakes.
There also was a version of the Helsinki bombing raid mentioned earlier. Here a babelfish translation:
Exemplary combat training in the war with the White Finns showed the crew of the 3rd air squadron of the 1st air regiment (squadron commander captain N. A. Tokarev, military commissar - elder political instructor N. p. Ivanov). However, during the first day of war, on 30 November, 1939, the squadron delivered impact on the military industrial objects of Helsinki. The foreign press widely commented on this very successful film of Soviet aviation, reporting, that the Finnish government hurried to evacuate from Helsinki in to bass.
Art wrote:I'm more interested in whether 10 ABr recieved any additional units after mid-December. The number of atacks made against finish targets is of interst too.
Have you read the Protiv Finliandii: Sovetskaia Morskaia Aviatsiia Na Baltike V Voine 1939-1940 Godov by S. V. Tirkeltaub and Viktor Stepakov
or the upgraded version of it:
Red Stars 5 by C.-F. Geust, S. Tirkeltaub, G. Petrov http://www.airforce.ru/book_review/redstars5/index.htm

Art wrote:
AFAIK in the last months of the war
Mainly in mid-February and later, i.e. in the last month.
March was the last month.

Regards, Juha

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Post by AndersG » 30 Aug 2007 20:38

I really don't know what the author of the article AndersG posted ment with the "Southern Finland"
The english summary says: "Because of the short flying times from Estonia to the Southern and South-western targets.."

The first paragraph of the actual (finnish text) says "The bases aquired in Estonia offered the SU great advantages in the war againt Finland. The time to target was drastically lowered. The distance to Helsinki from Leningrad, as the crow flies is 200km whereas the distance from Laokula, near Paldiski (Baltishport) is only 100 km...The most favourable target was Turku and Turku harbour. Turku and other harbours in southern Finland were important... Because of the short distances, the SU could use not only bombers, but also fighters..."

In my approximate translation. So I assume the article means Turku, Helsinki, Porvoo, Hanko... etc.

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Post by Tuco » 31 Aug 2007 23:38

Good info on an interesting subject.

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Re: Soviet bombings, from occupied Estonia during the winter

Post by Art » 01 Sep 2007 11:23

Juha Tompuri wrote: I must say that a babelfish translation of that article revealed nearly untolerable amount of mistakes.
At least the description of the composition of 10th ABr contradicts with other sources. I've found the following information in this book:
http://www.rpk-models.ru/product_info.p ... 012f12924f
In mid-December the group of Baltic Fleet aviation in Estonia was reinforced with 9 I-15bis and 6 I-153 from 5th IAP two squadrons (18 SB) from 57th SBAP and one squadron of DB-3 (6 planes) from 1st MTAP. All aircrafts were stationed at Pladiski (Estonia). Aside from them at the start of the hostilities three recon squadrons were stationed in Baltic states: 44th RMAE (8 MBR-2, Paldiski), 15th RMAE (15 MBR-2, Moonsund islands) and 43th RMAE (13 MBR-2, Libava). As far as I understand all three squadrons were subordinated to 10th OAB too. So the number of aircrafts in the brigade must be 75, that coincides with your source.
March was the last month.
The word "month" can be applied not only to the calendar month but also to the 30-days long period. In this sense the last month of the war means the period between 10-15th February and 13th March. After all the expression "the last months" seems to be weird when apllied to the 100-days long war.

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Re: Soviet bombings, from occupied Estonia during the winter

Post by Juha Tompuri » 01 Sep 2007 21:41

Art wrote:
Juha Tompuri wrote: I must say that a babelfish translation of that article revealed nearly untolerable amount of mistakes.
At least the description of the composition of 10th ABr contradicts with other sources. I've found the following information in this book:
http://www.rpk-models.ru/product_info.p ... 012f12924f
In mid-December the group of Baltic Fleet aviation in Estonia was reinforced with 9 I-15bis and 6 I-153 from 5th IAP two squadrons (18 SB) from 57th SBAP and one squadron of DB-3 (6 planes) from 1st MTAP. All aircrafts were stationed at Pladiski (Estonia). Aside from them at the start of the hostilities three recon squadrons were stationed in Baltic states: 44th RMAE (8 MBR-2, Paldiski), 15th RMAE (15 MBR-2, Moonsund islands) and 43th RMAE (13 MBR-2, Libava). As far as I understand all three squadrons were subordinated to 10th OAB too. So the number of aircrafts in the brigade must be 75, that coincides with your source.
According to Red Stars 5 the number of planes at that unit varied during the war from 67 ( 27th Dec-39, JT) to 103 (20th Feb-40)
Hmmm...seems to be one more good reason to start learning russian.


Not of that important here but:
Art wrote:
March was the last month.
The word "month" can be applied not only to the calendar month but also to the 30-days long period. In this sense the last month of the war means the period between 10-15th February and 13th March.
From where the variation comes from?
AFAIK it's 30 days from 13th Feb-40 to 13th Mar-40.


...and:
Art wrote:After all the expression "the last months" seems to be weird when apllied to the 100-days long war.
Sometimes the truth can look a little bit weird.
Winter War ( 105 days) started on November 1939 and ended March 1940.
So it was fought over five months, the first ( two ) months being November and December, the last (two ) being February and March.

Regards, Juha

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Re: Soviet bombings, from occupied Estonia during the winter

Post by Art » 05 Sep 2007 10:23

Juha Tompuri wrote:
Hmmm...seems to be one more good reason to start learning russian.
I wouldn't rate it five stars but it provides some information including for example the list of Soviet airplanes losses.
From where the variation comes from?
AFAIK it's 30 days from 13th Feb-40 to 13th Mar-40.
From the entropy of the Universe, I think. :) You know this reminds me the anecdote about Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Watson on the baloon.

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Re: Soviet bombings, from occupied Estonia during the winter

Post by janner » 05 Sep 2007 16:17

Art wrote:
Juha Tompuri wrote:
From where the variation comes from?
AFAIK it's 30 days from 13th Feb-40 to 13th Mar-40.
From the entropy of the Universe, I think. :) You know this reminds me the anecdote about Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Watson on the baloon.
For those who may be lost at this point:

SHERLOCK HOLMES AND DR. WATSON IN A HOT-AIR BALLOON

Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Watson are taking a trip across a desert by hot-air balloon. There are not many landmarks; so eventually, they become lost. Luckily, while flying quite low, they see a man.

Holmes shouts, "Sir, could you please tell me where we are?"

The man looks up, ponders for a moment, and then answers, "Gentlemen, you are in a hot-air balloon!"

At this moment, a burst of wind picks up the balloon and carries it away.

Holmes turns to Watson and asks: "My friend, do you know who that man is?"

"No, Holmes, of course not!"

"He's a mathematician!"

"Holmes, that's incredible! But *how* do you know?"

"It's very simple, Watson. First of all, the man thought before giving us an answer. Secondly, his answer was absolutely correct. And thirdly, the answer he gave us was of no practical use, whatsoever!"

Art's quite right on the whole month thing - in English it can mean calender month, lunar month, and a straight thirty days. Well, there are, according to conservative estimates, over half a million words in the English Language, if we didn't double or triple up every once and a while imagine how many more there would be.

Sorry to drift off topic...

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Re: Soviet bombings, from occupied Estonia during the winter

Post by Juha Tompuri » 05 Sep 2007 19:46

Juha Tompuri wrote:Not of that important here but:
Art wrote:
March was the last month.
The word "month" can be applied not only to the calendar month but also to the 30-days long period. In this sense the last month of the war means the period between 10-15th February and 13th March.
From where the variation comes from?
AFAIK it's 30 days from 13th Feb-40 to 13th Mar-40.
When USSR still existed Finns had an expression: Suuri maa, suuret toleranssit.
Something like: "big country, big tolerances" in English.

Regards, Juha

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Re: Soviet bombings, from occupied Estonia during the winter

Post by janner » 05 Sep 2007 20:33

Juha Tompuri wrote:When USSR still existed Finns had an expression: Suuri maa, suuret toleranssit.
Something like: "big country, big tolerances" in English.

Regards, Juha
:lol:

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