Yak - 9 compared with German fighters

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tonyh
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#46

Post by tonyh » 18 Sep 2007, 14:10

Juha wrote:Tony I don't know from where You got those claims and the fact is that some pilots liked P-39 and some loathed it but read for ex. one Merle Olmsted's histories of 357th FG and you see that the way they flow it during their time in States was something else than "wide, low and slow circles" and for RAF I recomend that you read the AFDU report on Airacobra I before making such a sweeping claims.

Juha
Black Cross/Red Star is the source for the quotes. Also, it's mentioned in the interview with Golodnikov.

The fact remains, no matter how much we like the plane, that BOTH the USAF and the RAF wrote off the P-39 for use against the BF109.

And Golodnikov himself had some very serious complaints about it.

I wonder what the Jagdwaffe thought of the machine.

Tony

frcoplan
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#47

Post by frcoplan » 18 Sep 2007, 14:57

Here is a list of russian aces it is interesting to see how many of them flew at least part of the time with p39:

http://wio.ru/aces/ace2.htm

frcoplan


Juha
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#48

Post by Juha » 18 Sep 2007, 15:47

Hello Tony

”Black Cross/Red Star is the source for the quotes.”

How I guessed that? I’d be cautious to rely on Bergström on topics outside strictly LW vs. VVS matters. I really doubt that a FG new in combat could with fighter capable only to "wide, low and slow circles" manage like 8th FG did against an elite and battle-hardened IJNAF Zero unit.

Yes, P-39 didn’t shine in MTO but try to find the AFDU report on Airacobra I, it might surprise You, even if they flew it only against late E Messerschmidt, IIRC. But it’s a curious fact that in West they tended to value P-40 more than P-39 and in Soviet Union it was other way around.

“I wonder what the Jagdwaffe thought of the machine.”

Now it seems that LW pilots had as divided opinion on P-39 as US pilots.

According to Finnish translation of Lipfert’s memories, P-39 was in 1943 one of the most dangerous opponent in Eastern Front but according to Finnish translation of Rall’s memories, P-39 was a poor fighter.

Finnish aces seemed to think that it was a dangerous opponent to Bf 109G, one even said that he thinks that it was the most dangerous opponent in summer 44 and confirmed that when I asked confirmation to that after his lecture. So one can think whatever on P-39 and will find confirmation to his opinion on statements of ex-pilots or of ex-opponents.

tonyh
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#49

Post by tonyh » 18 Sep 2007, 17:32

How I guessed that? I’d be cautious to rely on Bergström on topics outside strictly LW vs. VVS matters
Oh, I think that is somewhat unfair. I've heard the "widowmaker" and "low, slow circles" remarks before and Bergstrom and Mikhailov don't say whether they rated the P-39 anyway. Either way, it's not their assertion. They simply provided information regarding unit (19 GIAP) and deliveries, with the quotes. The next volume of "Black Cross/Red Star" may elaborate further.

I think it's correct to conclude that the 1944 vintage P-39 was a different animal to the machine of the preceding years however.

I wonder, are there any accounts of VVS pilots who felt that the P-39 was rubbish.


Tony

Juha
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#50

Post by Juha » 18 Sep 2007, 20:18

Tony
Now my recollection was that the “wide, low and slow circles” claim was in a caption with the claim that RAF fighter pilots refused to fly P-39 against the LW fighters. Now the B & M usually rate planes in captions. In matter of fact because I have never heard on mutiny in 601 Sqn, I asked from Bergström his source but got only very evasive answers on the development of pc etc. One can read a better description on the 601 Sqn and Airacobra from Hunt’s 21 Sqns or from one article in an old Aeroplane Monthly (IIRC from late 70s).

And I checked it and the caption can be found in BC RS Vol 2 p. 150 and my opinion is based on four Bergström’s books and booklets, not only on BC RS Vol 2. But it’s only my opinion.

“I wonder, are there any accounts of VVS pilots who felt that the P-39 was rubbish.”

I have heard at least one but sorry cannot remember that pilot’s name but I’d be surprised if there are not others. During Soviet era there was a tendency to belittle western aid, as there was in West tendency to exaggerate it, and as I have said P-39 tended to divide opinions.

tonyh
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#51

Post by tonyh » 19 Sep 2007, 13:25

The caption in full is...
An American-built Bell P-39 Airacobra in VVS service. When Lend-Lease shipments of Airacobras to the USSR commenced, RAF fighter pilots dismissed the heavy fighter as a "widowmaker" and simply refused to fly it against the Luftwaffe fighters. "Suited for wide, low, and slow circles," was a comment bestowed upon the P-39 by USAAF pilots. The Airacobra had its baptism of fire on the Eastern Front with 19 GIAP, which received 16 of the type - together with 10 P-40 Kittyhawks - in late April 1942. Although the only available instructions were in English, the assembly of the aircraft and training of pilots were carried out rapidly. The first combat involving Airacobras in VVS service took place on May 15 1942, without loss to either side. Next day, the first loss was suffered when the Airacobra with serial number AH660 was shot down in combat with JG 5 BF109's. The pilot - Starshiy Leytenant Ivan Gaydayenko - survived unhurt.
I see no reason to disbelieve Bergstrom or Mikhailov here and they don't really go into rating the aircraft much.

I have yet to read anything about the P-39 in volume 3 of BC/RS. Perhaps, there is more info in that volume. More likely we'll see more info in later volumes, which will deal from '43 onwards.

There may not have been any "mutiny" from 601 sqn, But there's a reason they only carried out one operation with the type and there must have been very solid reasons for the RAF to deem the P-39 unusable in 1941. I've read on other forums too that USAF pilots in the Pacific joking say that they would have preferred to fly trucks, as they had "better speed and a higher service ceiling". God knows where that came from though.

Tony

Juha
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#52

Post by Juha » 19 Sep 2007, 16:24

"there must have been very solid reasons for the RAF to deem the P-39 unusable in 1941"

Yes there were and those can be found in books and articles but in none of serious text that I have read I haven't seen a claim that British pilots had refused to fly P-39 against the Luftwaffe fighters. They were frustrated because Airacobra had so many tecnical problems etc. RAF considered the most serious the fact that P-39s compass went beserck every time its cannon was fired and the error was unpredicted so after firing the cannon compass was useless as navigational aid.

And yes as I have said one can read all kinds of opinions on P-39s from those cited to Chuck Yeager's provocative statement that of all aircraft he had flown he liked P-39 most or something like that.

But You can believe what you like. Maybe you also believe that RAF categorized its damaged a/c to two categories of total losses and to those that were repairable at unit level and all those mechanics in MUs and other repair organisations only collected a/c pieces for scrapping or drank tea. See: http://www.1jma.dk/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3371
That's only one example of reasons behind my opinion

Juha
Last edited by Juha on 20 Sep 2007, 09:00, edited 1 time in total.

tonyh
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#53

Post by tonyh » 19 Sep 2007, 17:53

But You can believe what you like. Maybe you also believe that RAF categorized its damaged a/c to two categories of total losses and to those that were repairable at unit and all those mechanics in MUs and other repair units only collected a/c pieces for scrapping or drank tea. See: http://www.1jma.dk/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3371
That's only one example of reasons behind my opinion
I don't think this has anything at all to do with the discussion Juha.

Tony

Juha
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#54

Post by Juha » 19 Sep 2007, 19:35

"I don't think this has anything at all to do with the discussion Juha."

I agree and also that what the British and Americans thought on the P-39 had not much to do with "Yak - 9 compared with German fighters" discussion

Juha

tonyh
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#55

Post by tonyh » 20 Sep 2007, 11:39

Ha ha.....true.

Tony

Juha
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#56

Post by Juha » 20 Sep 2007, 15:28

And now back to business from those many times, at least to me, too attractive sidetracks.
IMHO Bf 109G was in principle better fighter than Yak-9, and definitely better than a bit substandard Yak-9M or those longer range Yak-9D and DD. But much depended on pilots and tactical situation. For example if the fight was under cloud base at rather low altitude the Bf 109G would be hard pressed as were sometimes stated in Finnish combat reports on combats against Yak-9s, which Finns sometimes called “Wooden Spitfires”.

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#57

Post by Topspeed » 21 Sep 2007, 10:43

Juha wrote:And now back to business from those many times, at least to me, too attractive sidetracks.
IMHO Bf 109G was in principle better fighter than Yak-9, and definitely better than a bit substandard Yak-9M or those longer range Yak-9D and DD. But much depended on pilots and tactical situation. For example if the fight was under cloud base at rather low altitude the Bf 109G would be hard pressed as were sometimes stated in Finnish combat reports on combats against Yak-9s, which Finns sometimes called “Wooden Spitfires”.
If Yak-9 would have been superior to Me-109 G; why were none of the escorted bomber missions ( to tackle the overhelming enemy at Karelia during 1943-44 ) ever to loose a single bomber due to enemy fire ?

I know at least one incident were an unescoreted FAF Ju-88 did crash when being chased particularly by a Yak fighter. It was a plane where Mannerheim cross holder "Rolle" Winqvist died at Karelian Isthmus.

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#58

Post by Juha » 21 Sep 2007, 13:26

I didn’t claim that Yak-9 was better but that 109G was better but that there were situations where Yak’s better horizontal manoeuvrability could have been important factor.

IIRC "Rolle" Winqvist’ s plane crashed near Salmi, ie on NE coast of Lake Ladoga and they were then trying to disengage from La-5(s).

Juha
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#59

Post by Topspeed » 23 Sep 2007, 10:52

Juha wrote:I didn’t claim that Yak-9 was better but that 109G was better but that there were situations where Yak’s better horizontal manoeuvrability could have been important factor.

IIRC "Rolle" Winqvist’ s plane crashed near Salmi, ie on NE coast of Lake Ladoga and they were then trying to disengage from La-5(s).

Juha
Juha
Who shot Sarjamos plane that collided then with Nissinen's plane ?

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#60

Post by Topspeed » 23 Sep 2007, 10:57

Juha wrote:For example if the fight was under cloud base at rather low altitude the Bf 109G would be hard pressed as were sometimes stated in Finnish combat reports on combats against Yak-9s, which Finns sometimes called “Wooden Spitfires”.
I never heard about this...can you explain ?

I think Wind always said he was shot by an AC but wingman Nipa said there were only YAKs around at that day.

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