6 million killed in holocaust? Maybe more?

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DarExc
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6 million killed in holocaust? Maybe more?

Post by DarExc » 28 Dec 2002 09:58

You always hear the number 6 million but is that for everyone or just jews or just the people killed near the end in the gas chambers? What is the official number of total people killed, like political aponents and gays and all the other people the nazis picked on? Also would they all be put in the same places to live and work before being executed? I have heard 11 million, I have heard 13 million but who knows? Maybe my sources arn't that great ;p

billy beard
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Post by billy beard » 28 Dec 2002 15:43

i don't think a 'true' figure will ever be reached as looking into the number of people killed usually gives rise to claims of 'holocaust denial'. due to the large amounts of contridictions in peoples testomonies a figure based on 100% fact will never be reached

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Germania
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Post by Germania » 28 Dec 2002 17:37

A really good answer billy beard!Excellent!
For DarExc: NOBODY ever can tell an fact based number which is 100% true!

Dan
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Post by Dan » 28 Dec 2002 17:54

You always hear the number 6 million but is that for everyone or just jews or just the people killed near the end in the gas chambers?
The number of gas chamber deaths are currently held to be just over 2 million by establishment historians.

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Post by Charles Bunch » 28 Dec 2002 17:56

billy beard wrote:i don't think a 'true' figure will ever be reached as looking into the number of people killed usually gives rise to claims of 'holocaust denial'. due to the large amounts of contridictions in peoples testomonies a figure based on 100% fact will never be reached
Estimates of the Holocaust death toll aren't based on testimonies.

Death tolls for all mass murders are difficult to make. The estimate for the Holocaust is the most exhaustively researched and supported.

ChristopherPerrien
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Numbers of people killed by The Final Solution

Post by ChristopherPerrien » 28 Dec 2002 20:18

Jews 5.6 - 6.25 m, Soviet pow 3m, Catholics(Polish) 3m, Serbs 700k, Gypies222k-250k, anti-nazi germans 80k, handicapped germans 70k, homosexual 12k, Jehova Witness 2.5k.

These figures are from "The Holocaust Chronicle",Publications Internation, LTD.2002 764pp, An excellelent book on the subject. Bought it at Waldenbooks on sale $19.99. note:excellent pictures 1000's

Honestly I used to think that the six million jews was probably an overestimate since most books on the subject have been written and published by Jewish owned or influenced press, This book is that way too, but the conciseness and accuracy and completeness of the book is very impressive. It convinced me and I have read thousands and own hundreds of books about WWII.

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Scott Smith
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Re: Numbers of people killed by The Final Solution

Post by Scott Smith » 28 Dec 2002 20:27

ChristopherPerrien wrote:homosexual 12k, Jehova Witness 2.5k
I find those figures questionable since homosexuals were imprisoned as criminals for violating Section 175 of the penal code against sodomy dating from 1871 and still on the books until about 1969.

As far as the JWs they were imprisoned as draft resisters, though some were martyred because they would not work for the state during the war.

Also, I'm not sure it is fair to include Soviet POWs, who were treated badly but not any worse than German POWs in tender Soviet hands.
:)

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Re: Numbers of people killed by The Final Solution

Post by Charles Bunch » 28 Dec 2002 21:22

Scott Smith wrote:
ChristopherPerrien wrote:homosexual 12k, Jehova Witness 2.5k
I find those figures questionable since homosexuals were imprisoned as criminals for violating Section 175 of the penal code against sodomy dating from 1871 and still on the books until about 1969.
THey were not imprisoned. They were put into conconcentration camps.

Many people died in the camps.

The 12 thousand figure is in line with scholarship.

Reudiger Lautmann in _Gay Prisoners in Concentration Camps Compared with Jehovah's Witnesses and Political Criminals_ estimates a death rate for homosexuals of just over 50% in the camps, versus about 35% for Jehovah's Witnesses.
As far as the JWs they were imprisoned as draft resisters, though some were martyred because they would not work for the state during the war.
And some died as a result of the conditions in the camps, the responsibility of Nazi Germany.

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Post by billy beard » 28 Dec 2002 21:31

Death tolls for all mass murders are difficult to make. The estimate for the Holocaust is the most exhaustively researched and supported
i disagree with your comment charles about the estimated death tolls being exhaustively researched and supported. the amount of people slandered for asking basic questions to what are reasonably questions is unbelievable [and no im not a holocaust denier] but some of the things we are told and lead to believe are simply ludicrous and when this happens people will naturally ask further questions,i fail to see the point of telling half-truths and lies [in some cases] to exaggerate what is already a horrific period in history

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Scott Smith
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Re: Numbers of people killed by The Final Solution

Post by Scott Smith » 28 Dec 2002 21:36

Charles Bunch wrote:And some died as a result of the conditions in the camps, the responsibility of Nazi Germany.
Maybe, but this doesn't necessarily mean they were murdered, which is what the "toll" figures imply. And mostly in wartime besides. Wartime is hazardous by nature.
:)

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Re: Numbers of people killed by The Final Solution

Post by Charles Bunch » 28 Dec 2002 22:08

Scott Smith wrote:
Charles Bunch wrote:And some died as a result of the conditions in the camps, the responsibility of Nazi Germany.
Maybe, but this doesn't necessarily mean they were murdered, which is what the "toll" figures imply.


No maybe about it! Historical fact.

And it most certainly was murder. To keep people in conditions which are known to be causing deaths is an act of murder.

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Post by Charles Bunch » 28 Dec 2002 22:12

billy beard wrote:
Death tolls for all mass murders are difficult to make. The estimate for the Holocaust is the most exhaustively researched and supported
i disagree with your comment charles about the estimated death tolls being exhaustively researched and supported.



You can disagree all you want, but that is the opinion of people who study such things.

Perhaps you can cite a mass murder with better research into the death toll?
the amount of people slandered for asking basic questions to what are reasonably questions is unbelievable

Whether they are being slandered or not is a matter of opinion.

And the questions are usually pretty transparent, questions never asked about any other historical event.
[and no im not a holocaust denier] but some of the things we are told and lead to believe are simply ludicrous and when this happens people will naturally ask further questions,
But merely declaring that you find something ludicrous is your right, but hardly a discussion of history.
i fail to see the point of telling half-truths and lies [in some cases] to exaggerate what is already a horrific period in history
I fail to see why you would make such a silly statement.

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Post by billy beard » 28 Dec 2002 22:24

if you want to believe some of ludicrous prisoner statements then do so but i really cant be bothered to discuss this with someone as confrontational as you.
Last edited by billy beard on 28 Dec 2002 22:27, edited 1 time in total.

Charles Bunch
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Post by Charles Bunch » 28 Dec 2002 22:27

billy beard wrote:if you want to believe some of ludicrous prisoner statements then do so
Define a ludicrous statement?

billy beard
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Post by billy beard » 28 Dec 2002 22:29

i'll decline on the grounds that the next thing you'll do is blurt on about me being a denier

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