Finnish particpation in the "Talinn disaster"

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patrik.possi
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Finnish particpation in the "Talinn disaster"

Post by patrik.possi » 24 Oct 2007 20:07

One of the lesser known events of WWII is the Soviet navy evacuation from Talinn and the great loss of life and ships they sufferd.

Does any on know witch finnish units that was involved in the battle?

Rgds Patrik

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Post by Seppo Koivisto » 24 Oct 2007 21:06

Finnish TV showed a year ago a documentary called Hell on the Gulf of Finland.
http://www.yle.fi/ykkosdokumentti/arkis ... hdella.htm
http://www.docpoint.info/katalogi/index ... vuosi=2004

60 ships were sunk and 16 000 people killed, 10 000 of them civil, when Russia evacuated Tallinn on 28 August 1941. Most ships were sunk by mines, but also German Stukas and coastal artillery participated. Don´t know if any Finnish troops were directly involved.

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patrik.possi
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Post by patrik.possi » 24 Oct 2007 21:19

I have vauge referenses of finnish bombers, and torpedoboats attacks in some finnish books,

In this site we can see that at least that finnish patrolboats did capture some russian shipps.

http://users.tkk.fi/~jaromaa/Navygaller ... n-evac.htm

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Post by Juha Tompuri » 24 Oct 2007 22:05

A memory from the past:
viewtopic.php?t=117499&highlight

t: Juha

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Re: Finnish particpation in the "Talinn disaster"

Post by Mangrove » 19 Jan 2010 10:01

Finnish Air Force had only mediocre success against naval targets in 1941. On 25 July 1941 VP-8 (a Tupolev SB) bombed a 3000-4000 ton freighter with four 50 kilogram bombs from a height of 600 meters at grid H 14965 (Kunda). The attack took place at 2.52 p.m. The ship was covered with smoke from the hits. Machine gun fire was aimed at the escorting destroyer.

The same plane and crew were responsible for one more attack on 28 July 1941, at 4.58 a.m. A convoy was first bombed and then fired upon at grid H 14952. The bombs were near misses but machine gun fire, around 300 rounds, was aimed against a motor boat with great results ("suihkut erittäin hyvin maalissa")

Damaged: a freighter and a motor boat

Le.Lv 30 had similar success with their Fokkers. On 9 September 1941, 8.20 and 10.30 a.m. Six Fokkers strafed enemy freighter (Lavansaari area?) which started to smoke and small explosions were observed.

On 29 October 1941 between 9.15 and 11.50 a.m. two Fokkers strafed twice a freighter and a patrol boat SSW of Seivästö lighthouse. Both caught fire and the freighter later sunk. Between 12.30 a.m. and 1.20 p.m. six Fokkers strafed a MTB which caught fire, exploded and sank c. 500 meters north of Harjavalta island.

1 November 1941, between 7.25 and 8.10 a.m. six Fokkers attacked a tugboat escorted by two patrol boats circa ten kilometers south of Koivisto. Tugboat caught fire and the two patrol boats were immobilized. Light machine gun fire from the boats. 9.25 - 10.15 a.m. same six planes strafed three MTBs five kilometers east of Seiskari, all caught fire and exploded. Heavy 20mm AA fire from the boats. Later a destroyer with two gun boats arrived at the scene and they were fired upon, no visible damage apart from human losses was inflicted ("molempien tykkiveneiden kansille kaatui miehiä").

4 November 1941, 8.55 - 10.55 a.m., two Fokkers strafed gunboat c. three kilometers north of Harjavalta island. Caught fire, responded with heavy AA fire (40mm). Second attack from 10.55 to 11.55 a.m.

11 November 1941, 10.00 - 11.10 a.m. Fokkers met a MTB and a quite patrol boat three kilometers NW of Lavansaari. Both were fire upon, MTB caught fire and exploded later. 20mm fire from both.

1 December 1941. A merchant caught fire when Fokker engaged it three kilometers south of Kronstadt.

Sunk: a freighter and five motor torpedo boats.
Caught fire but did not sunk: a gunboat, two freighters, two patrol boats and a tugboat

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Re: Finnish particpation in the "Talinn disaster"

Post by John Hilly » 26 Jan 2010 11:53

Terve!
According to Helge Seppälä’s study “Leningradin saarto 1941-1944” :

... When the troops of AG Nord were already at the gates of Tallinn, a great evacuation fleet took of on 28.8. towards Leningrad and Kronstadt. The large convoy was inevitably drifted to the mine-block of “Juminda” but broke through it. During the operation convoy lost 16 war ships and 35 other ships, but brought about 18 000 soldiers to Leningrad. Baltic Fleet’s losses were big, but tolerable under the circumstances.

Bearable losses was a result of the fact, that neither German nor Finnish vessels weren’t seen guarding the mine-block and no German Stukas were at the nearby air fields. The 47 mine-sweepers of the convoy could therefore save most of the vessels through the mine-block without disturbance, although the result was the biggest one-time mine-losses in the military history. Due to their weak recconnance the German and the Finns let go a perfect possibility to almost totally destroy the evacuation fleet which was steaming specificly to support Leningrad. ...

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Juha
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patrik.possi
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Re: Finnish particpation in the "Talinn disaster"

Post by patrik.possi » 30 Jan 2010 01:29

Intressting.

But does any one have the time to check wath the wardiary of the Finnish 2nd Motor Torpedo Boat Flotilla with torpedo boats VMV9, VMV10, VMV11 and VMV17, says about the mater? As some sources say the where present...

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JTV
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Re: Finnish particpation in the "Talinn disaster"

Post by JTV » 30 Jan 2010 07:00

patrik.possi wrote:Intressting.

But does any one have the time to check wath the wardiary of the Finnish 2nd Motor Torpedo Boat Flotilla with torpedo boats VMV9, VMV10, VMV11 and VMV17, says about the mater? As some sources say the where present...
Did 2nd Motor Torpedo Boat Flotilla even exist yet at that time? Only war diary of motor torpedo boat flotilla that I could find from 1941 is from unit simply called Moottoritorpedovenelaivue (Motor Torpedo Boat Flotilla) - there are not number in its name.

Here is the page from that war diary 28th of August 1941.
http://digi.narc.fi/digi/fullpic.ka?kui ... 400&sy=400

Not much happening in 28th - 29th August in that unit according the war diary. Besides normal patrolling, there were some small scale mine laying with patrol boats and motor torpedo boats boats at night in Viipurinlahti Gulf.

Also: VMV (vartiomoottorivene) were patrol boats armed with automatic cannons and machineguns, they were not motor torpedo boats. MTV = moottoritorpedovene = motor torpedo boat.

More info about Finnish motor torpedo boats and VMV patrol boats:
http://users.tkk.fi/~jaromaa/Navygallery/
-> Small Ships

Jarkko

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Re: Finnish particpation in the "Talinn disaster"

Post by Juha Tompuri » 30 Jan 2010 09:44

1941 some VMV patrol boats were converted as "auxillary motortorpedo boats" (and according to some info also the captured Soviet armored launch VTV-1 was armed with torpedoes)
(28.8 1941, JT) Schooner Atta was torpedoed by Finnish VMV-17...
/29.8 1941, JT) At 05.30 tug I-18 was captured by Finnish patrol boats.
At 05.30 tug Paldiski was captured by Finnish patrol boats.
http://users.tkk.fi/jaromaa/Navygallery ... n-evac.htm

According to Peuranheimo, Pirhonen, Killinen Laivat Puuta Miehet Rautaa (Ships of wood, men of iron) their unit was in adiition to the earlier mentioned also called as Toinen Puolilaivue and II/MtvLv
A photo from the book mentioned above:
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JTV
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Re: Finnish particpation in the "Talinn disaster"

Post by JTV » 30 Jan 2010 18:47

Juha Tompuri wrote:1941 some VMV patrol boats were converted as "auxillary motortorpedo boats" (and according to some info also the captured Soviet armored launch VTV-1 was armed with torpedoes)
(28.8 1941, JT) Schooner Atta was torpedoed by Finnish VMV-17...
/29.8 1941, JT) At 05.30 tug I-18 was captured by Finnish patrol boats.
At 05.30 tug Paldiski was captured by Finnish patrol boats.
http://users.tkk.fi/jaromaa/Navygallery ... n-evac.htm
Thanks, this was new info for me. The war diary mentions several osasto (detachment) such as Osasto Peuranheimo, Osasto Viimamäki (?) and Osasto Killinen leaving and returning. I presume these were temporary units created from variety of boats for some specific mission in similar manner as Army formed temporary detachments with variety of infantry, artillery and other heavy weapons units?

Jarkko

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Harri
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Re: Finnish particpation in the "Talinn disaster"

Post by Harri » 12 Feb 2010 16:30

JTV wrote:The war diary mentions several osasto (detachment) such as Osasto Peuranheimo, Osasto Viimamäki (?) and Osasto Killinen leaving and returning.
I think the mentioned officer is Lt.Cmd. (kapt.ltn.) Keijo Esaias Viinamäki who was the chief of the Naval Mine Testing Department, later Naval Mine Testing Station [Laivaston Miinakoeosasto, myöhemmin Miinakoeasema] during the Continuation War. This unit was at Kallanpää under the command of Turku Naval Station. It evaluated and developed all kinds of mine clearing devices. (Unless there are two Viinamäkis like there are two Peuranheimos, Orvo and Olavi.)

In 1941 II MTB Group / Motor Torpedo Boat Flotilla (II Moottoritorpedoveneryhmä, II/Mtv.Lv.) [VMV 9 - 11, VMV 17] was led by Lt.Cmd. H. Carring.

In 1941 Motor Launch Group (Vartiomoottoriveneryhmä, Vmv.R) [VMV 5, VMV 6, VMV 8, VMV 12] was led by Lt.Cmd. K. Viinamäki.

In 1942 - 1943 1st Motor Lauch Squadron (1. Vartiomoottorivenelaivue, 1.Vmv.Lv.) [VMV 1, VMV 2, VMV 13 - 16,
Emälaiva (Emäl.) (Depot Ship) Kallbådagrund (1943)] was led by Lt.Cmd. Olavi Peuranheimo and Lt.Cmd H. Carring (6.9.42-). It belonged to Detachment Väinämöinen (Os.V).

In 1942 - 1943 2nd Motor Lauch Squadron (2. Vartiomoottorivenelaivue (2.Vmv.Lv.) [VMV 5 - 6, VMV 8 - 9, VMV 10 - 12, VMV 17] led by Lt.Cmd. H. Carring and Lt.Cmd. Olavi Peuranheimo (6.9.42-):
I/Vmv.Lv. [6x vmv / motor launches]
II/Vmv.Lv. [4x vmv / motor launches, Emäl./Depot ship Louhi]
This unit belonged to Light Naval Detachment (Kevyt laivasto-osasto).

Motor launches (VMV) belonged to "ordinary" MTB units only in 1941.

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Re: Finnish particpation in the "Talinn disaster"

Post by Juha Tompuri » 03 Aug 2012 20:42

Some more photos of torpedo equipped VMV boats:
Image
http://sovnavy-ww2.narod.ru/transports/vmv17.htm#ata
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Juha Tompuri
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Re: Finnish particpation in the "Talinn disaster"

Post by Juha Tompuri » 27 Apr 2013 19:36

Some more:
Image SA-photo 40268

Image SA-photo 40270

Regards, Juha

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