Separate Peace Talks Russia-Germany in March 1943

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susanne shanghai
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Separate Peace Talks Russia-Germany in March 1943

#1

Post by susanne shanghai » 07 Jan 2008, 13:20

I'm doing research on Berlin lawyer Dr. Helmut Pfeiffer (1907-1945). recently I've found another hint in Henry Picker's ‚Hitler's Table Talk'. Does anybody have informations about this event and the persons involved?

Picker wrote:
When Bormann ordered me for a final discussion of my proposed later publication of ‚Hitler's Table Talk' into his house at Obersalzberg, I colelcted all my courage and informed him about Stalin's offer for separate peace talks which had been received in Stockholm. My friend Dr. Helmut Pfeiffer, Generalsecretary of the International Chamber of Law had asked me to do so.

Bormann was more than surprised, since Reichsaußenminister Joachim von Ribbentrop, whose demission Stalin wanted, had trivialised this proposal.

Bormann was not successful in convincing Hitler to accept this unique proposal for separate peace talks with russia in march 1943.
Henry Picker became relegated from Hitler's headquarters and sent to the army.

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phylo_roadking
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#2

Post by phylo_roadking » 07 Jan 2008, 15:13

I've never heard of that incident, but it certainly wasn't the first. Stalin offered talks on two occasions late in 1941 via the Bulgarians.


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Michael Emrys
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#3

Post by Michael Emrys » 08 Jan 2008, 05:34

March, 1943, seems a trifle late in the war for Stalin to be seeking peace, but it's plausible. He may have felt that having handed the Germans a stunning defeat at Stalingrad, they might be ready to come to terms. Yet it is early enough that Stalin himself might not have felt entirely confident at the prospect of victory. Six months later, after Kursk and the summer offensive, Stalin would have felt much more confident of victory.

Michael

randwick
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#4

Post by randwick » 18 Jan 2008, 03:30

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There is strong rumors than some semi diplomatic move were made in the spring of 43 , using the Japaneses embassy in Moscow who was desperate to help and soviet embassy in Sweden , the then ambassador ms Alexandra Kollontai would have been used to authenticate the channels as legitimate ,without being directly involved

The whole episode reek of Stalin's personal touch ,
At the time , he was very upset about the poor performance of the western allied and their lack of activity , the second front had been put off until 44 , its location still hypothetical
the whole thing sounded very tentative to Stalin who could only see years of hard desperate fighting ahead while the western allied would sip gin tonic in the Mediterranean watching Germany and Russia tear at each other apart crippling both grievously

The move had plenty of motives ,
1...It could lead to a negotiated peace , after Stalingrad , the Nazis might have a realistic appraisal of their situation
2...It could be leaked to the allied as further proof of the Soviets displeasure and willingness to take an independent course
3.. It could raise the price of soviet cooperation concerning the map of post war Europe
4..It could imply keeping peace with Japan and not joining in after V E

The main goal was of course blackmail , it used the ghastly disaster of the anglo/french negotiations in august 39 as precedent ,
the ensuing Molotov Ribbentrop pact was an example of the peril of taking the soviets for granted

Hitler didn't want to play ball , any peace would have to be on the basis of a return to the situation ante bellum, as a minimum , the plot succeeded anyway
The convoys restarted , the Teheran's conference in December settled all business to Stalin satisfaction ,
Roosevelt nailing overlord in spite of Churchill squirming and mutual acquiescence to territorial loses of Poland
...( Churchill didn't tell it to the poles , to keep them happily fighting in blissful ignorance ).

.

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bf109 emil
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Re: Separate Peace Talks Russia-Germany in March 1943

#5

Post by bf109 emil » 25 Mar 2008, 23:45

The Tehran confrence assure no country would go sneaking off and sign a back-door peace treaty with Germany as Russia did in the first world war, freeing troops to resume fighting in other theatres, as the rush of soldiers to the western front, when the eastern one signed an armistice, nearly turned the tide...but to state previously that Churchill squirmed might havre taken after Roosevelt, in his ignorant bliss stated publiclly that nothing short of un-conditional surrender by Germany would be accepted. This was already known and assumed by the Allied commanders, but by saying this, doomed hundred of thousand of Soviet, American, and Commonwealth forces as propaganda by Germany and Goebels had a field day, for Roosevelt QUOTE...as Churchill knew what this blunder meant, as did Stalin, they never could and did let on that this goof would be used by Hitler to rally the Volkstrum to not become an Soviet slave, or American/British peasant, that the unconditional surrender would cause the abolishment of Germany, and it's people, forcing them from there land..etc..one of the biggest and worst statements by a leader of the war...bar none...and basically ended any hopes of Germany getting a peace settlement, or siding with the west...

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Patzinak
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Re: Separate Peace Talks Russia-Germany in March 1943

#6

Post by Patzinak » 26 Mar 2008, 02:40

susanne shanghai wrote:[…] I colelcted all my courage and informed him about Stalin's offer for separate peace talks which had been received in Stockholm.[…]
There are all sorts of claims about the issue. (Liddell-Hart even claimed a meeting between Molotov and Ribbentrop near Kirovograd in June 1943.) Much of the Stockholm claim is based on the memoirs of Peter Kleist, a Ribbentrop aide. They are analysed by Mastny (1972), in conjunction with analysis of Soviet moves and some US archive documents. In short, Mastny argues that Kleist's claims have some credibility; that low-level talks were initiated in Stockholm in March '43 by the Soviets, leading to a late April meeting at a location outside Stockholm, in which the two ministers, Kollontai and Thomsen, may have had some participation. However, no agreement was reached and the talks were broken by the Soviets in early May.

Another set of low-level meetings may have occurred in mid-June '43, again initiated by the Soviets. They were reported by the Swedish press on June 16, and vehemently denied by both Soviets and Germans, but they were confirmed by US and British intelligence reports. The details and persons involved differ from account to account.

Finally, a half-hearted attempt at negotiations may have been initiated by the Germans in early September '43. The Soviets still seemed responsive, but no actual meeting took place.

All this is quite old, and I'm sure there must be something more recent on the subject.

Source: Mastny, Vojtech (1972) Stalin and the Prospects of a Separate Peace in World War II. American Historical Review 77(5): 1365–88.

--Patzinak

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Re: Separate Peace Talks Russia-Germany in March 1943

#7

Post by randwick » 26 Mar 2008, 08:06

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Talking during a war to your enemy about peace terms in a deniable way was and is , of course , standard fare .
I would go as far as thinking it normal and good to establish the price of peace in a conflict , it would be criminal to pursue war if acceptable alternatives existed .
A for pushing the good Germans volk in the arms of Hitler , keep dreaming , they were there already and had no chance of peace with any Nazis official still in charge ,nor was there any desire to make peace in the East ,
The only ones who wanted peace were Hitler 's allied
Italy with the west , Japan with the soviets .
As I stated above , it doesn't mean those 1943 " feelers " had any chances of becoming real , but the soviets went to great length to make sure noises about them reached the allied ,
A side issue is if there were any indirect discussions between Germans and British contacts
The soviet freaked out to Hermann Hess escapade , they thought an armistice was in the works
I would have thought the Germans would have been keen to work on this option
certainly some British politicians would have been agreeable , at least in 41

.

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Re: Separate Peace Talks Russia-Germany in March 1943

#8

Post by randwick » 26 Mar 2008, 08:10

randwick wrote:.

Talking during a war to your enemy about peace terms in a deniable way was and is , of course , standard fare .
I would go as far as thinking it normal and good to establish the price of peace in a conflict , it would be criminal to pursue war if acceptable alternatives existed .
It also can give a good indication of how the other side confidence of ultimate victory wax and wane
A for pushing the good Germans volk in the arms of Hitler , keep dreaming , they were there already and had no chance of peace with any Nazis official still in charge ,nor was there any desire to make peace in the East ,
The only ones who wanted peace were Hitler 's allied
Italy with the west , Japan with the soviets .
As I stated above , it doesn't mean those 1943 " feelers " had any chances of becoming real , but the soviets went to great length to make sure noises about them reached the allied ,
A side issue is if there were any indirect discussions between Germans and British contacts
The soviet freaked out to Hermann Hess escapade , they thought an armistice was in the works
I would have thought the Germans would have been keen to work on this option
certainly some British politicians would have been agreeable , at least in 41

.

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bf109 emil
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Re: Separate Peace Talks Russia-Germany in March 1943

#9

Post by bf109 emil » 26 Mar 2008, 20:32

This is a very good topic. One that deserves more time and attention. The term peace talks in baffling although...would this reply to an armistice?? was it to assume as peace that Germany would back out of the Caucas's, Leningrad,Latvia,Lithuania, the Ukraine, and return to it's former borders?? Was it to assume, that a magic wand would appear, and Stalin and Soviet Russia, would allow Germany ill-gotten gain's, one in which, had Ribbentrop and Rosenberg and the heralded Fueher policy of butchering slav's, most of which in countries in western Soviet Union, would have greeted their conquerer's with open arms, as many towns, cities and countries (prior to the iron fist of communism relsihing them into the soviet union).

Majority of lands, so called conquered, and troops captured must be remembered, that prior to communism taking hold in Russia, these where neighbours of Prussia, of Germany, and would have welcomed the chance to help, aid, but most of all be liberated from the purges of Stalin, and dictatorship government.

Numerous high ranking Generals, political big-wigs claimed to have told Hitler this, pointed it out, etc, blah,blah...Once the rumours, stories, evidence, and history, of what was occuring became reality to soviet soldiers, no longer where they fighting for a way of life, or any inkling at perhaps a german victory might be better then a Stalin regime'.

USSR had just captured the vaulted 6th army. The conquering army of France 2 years prior. The pride of the Wehrmacht and the German peoplle. 285,000 soldiers in Oct.42, 91,000 capture in feb of 43, and returning back to the fatherland was but a pultry 5000. The tide had turned, Rommel was smashed in Afrika, the mediterannean, was lost, their was no reason as for Russia to accept a peace-talk, Churchills issues where stated back in June of 1940, when the world abandoned her, and watched.

Perhaps if the world leaders, other then Churchill had seen that Mein Kampf was the blueprint for the idea's, stands, and direction which Hitler had guided the Wehrmacht, then perhaps people will ask why they where allowed to sit, until Hitler was ready to carry forth what he had said, put in print, and was shown to have been following...Joseph fell for the peace-treaty, was a pawn until Adolph was ready to remove. Ego states that no peace would ahve been signed if Stalin and Adolph remained in control or power...

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Re: Separate Peace Talks Russia-Germany in March 1943

#10

Post by randwick » 27 Mar 2008, 14:10

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Pretty much taking it from the bottom up
1- Stalin and Hitler WERE in power ,they would stay in power bolstered by their security machine headed by such men as Beria and Himmler
there was no chance whatsoever of a peace deal not including the approval of those two leaders , they were central figures

2-Everybody knew about mein kampf , it was required reading in all foreign affairs departments , the numerous examples from the re militarisation of the Rhineland to the Berlin Olympics and the racial laws gave abundant evidence of the utmost seriousness of Hitler intentions
for various reasons , Germany was allowed to rearm , intervene in spain and laid successful claim to more and more territories ,nobody could be surprised by Hitler policies , if anything he was very consistent .

3- the soviets had just won the great victory of Stalingrad but lost the big defeat of Kharkov , Stalin could make a rough estimate of how long the war would be and that a negotiated peace was worth a small try

4- Hitler personally refused to create an Ukrainian state or an anti soviet Russian army in spite of many volunteers and the deep wishes of the conquered population , the poles would have loved fighting Russians if given a bit of a state
the German were in the east to exterminate all the Slavic population , keeping a few illiterates as slaves ,
There was no point for Russians to be pro-Germans , still tens of thousands fought against Stalin

5- finally , the question of borders was insoluble , Stalin would have insisted as a minimum to the return of the pre june 41 borders , Hitler would have wanted most of what he had in the spring of 43
a deal can be made only if there is a matching of interests with both side compromising on some details , there was no possible territorial agreement ,

6- I do not believe for one second that Stalin intended seriously to make peace , the German side would have had to make massive concessions and give guaranties in return for the talks to get serious , he was shafted on round one and was not the forgiving kind .

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