The Killing game

[Davey Boy]

I've heard plenty of stories about Germans taking snap shots of executions. Such souvenirs were apparently found in letters by Polish resistance members who worked for post offices. If this is true it means there were some real sick puppies out there. Can anyone confirm or disprove this?

On the other hand, I've also heard stories about Germans being traumatised after witnessing many execustions. Wasn't this one of the reasons for the gas vans and such?

The closest I came to seeing anyone murdered was when I watched a video of a Russian POW getting his head cut off with a hunting knife by a Chechen. I was almost sick after that, and wished I never had seen it. If I had to witness a real life execution, I would surely become a vegetarian and join a monestary.

[Roberto]

I've heard plenty of stories about Germans taking snap shots of executions. Such souvenirs were apparently found in letters by Polish resistance members who worked for post offices. If this is true it means there were some real sick puppies out there. Can anyone confirm or disprove this?

Well, how else would pictures like those exhibited on the thread

Photo quiz (warning: gruesome stuff)
http://thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 58df09512d

of this forum have come into being?

However, I would consider those “puppies” to have been no more sick that the ones who took pictures of other horrors that have occurred throughout the world since the invention of photography. Have a look at Rummel’s online galleries:

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/RM1.PHOTOS.ROOM1.HTM

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/RM2.PHOTOS.ROOM2.HTM

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/RM3.PHOTOS.ROOM3.HTM

On the other hand, I've also heard stories about Germans being traumatised after witnessing many execustions. Wasn't this one of the reasons for the gas vans and such?

That this was a concern is documented by several sources, including but not limited to the following:

Whether at that time I had doubts against the use of gas vans I cannot say. The main issue for me at the time was that the shootings were a considerable burden for the man who were in charge thereof and that this burden was taken off them through the use of the gas vans.

From my translation of Walter Rauff’s deposition before the German embassy in Santiago de Chile on 28 June 1972, see the thread

Inside the RSHA
http://thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 58df09512d

of this forum.

That was a special order from Himmler to the effect that women and children were not to be exposed to the mental strain of the executions; and thus the men of the kommandos, mostly married men, should not be compelled to aim at women and children.

Einsatzgruppen commander Otto Ohlendorf in his testimony at Nuremberg, as quoted in

Yale F. Edeiken
An Introduction to the Einsatzgruppen

http://www.holocaust-history.org/intro-einsatz/

Whether the desired “relief” effect was achieved is another question.

[Fred]

On the other hand, I've also heard stories about Germans being traumatised after witnessing many execustions. Wasn't this one of the reasons for the gas vans and such?

"Propaganda and training had taught many members of the mobile killing squads to view their victims as enemies of Germany. Some killers drank heavily to dull their thoughts and feelings. In addition, when they described their actions they used code words like "special treatment" and "special action" instead of "killing" or "murder" to distance themselves from their terrible crimes."

Source: United States Holocaust Memorial Museum.

Yes the "morale" in the Einsatzgruppen got very low and new "methods" was introduced.

[Davey Boy]

Fair enough.

Just one comment though. I think there is a difference between someone taking a souvenir picture of their victim's death, and a journalist recording a news event, such as a murder. Still, the former is not always a bad thing. After all, like you said Roberto, it can be used as evidence.

[mottii]

Both Himmler and Eichmann came close to fainting when they
witnessed an execution up close.

[Birgitte Heuschkel]

Both Himmler and Eichmann came close to fainting when they
witnessed an execution up close.

... Which really says a lot about these two men. It really must be a lot easier to sign death warrants than to carry out the executions.

[Scanderbeg]

Both Himmler and Eichmann came close to fainting when they
witnessed an execution up close.

Any proof for that?

`Besian`

[Birgitte Heuschkel]

Both Himmler and Eichmann came close to fainting when they
witnessed an execution up close.

Any proof for that?

`Besian`

Eichmann at least said so himself during the trials in Israel.

[mike262752]

I've heard ont he history channel that suicides were common among the men who pulled the triggers. So they invented new methods where there was no personal contact.

[kellysartin]

i have heard the shock of shootings explaination for the gas vans and the death camps. but think a minute , it doesn't really sound at all logical or practical for that purpose. certainly the unloading of the cars, the undressing, the sorting of luggage , and then the road to the gas chambers and then the packing of the gas chambers, not to mention what came after that, the whole process in the camps involved very close contact between executioner and victim. no, clearly the experiment with gas and then the death factories were geared not toward sparing soldiers fealings or even for secrecies sake, but for effeciency. as for " sick puppies" ; that's dishonest moral posturing. you hate to see these sites do you? that's like going to the topless bar and then saying , " oh, i didn't want to see that!" these same folks engage in all sorts of intellectual gymnastics to justify handing the cossack korps back to the NKVD. if you are a cossack in German grey a bullet in the back of the head is o.k. , but if you are a jew- or a Pole for that matter- it's evil , heinous , sick, murder. yeah, right. btw, i suppose it's a good thing that the Poles suffered so much, it makes it easier to downplay the fact that in the main the Poles were very cooperative in the final solution and in cleaning out the communists. the same goes for most of the rest of occupied europe. anti-semitism was universally popular in the western world until the outcome of the war made it embarassingly inconvient. every age has its popular , irrational hates. its popular conceits. perhaps 500 years hence the venomous hatred of queers, child molesters , and Nazis will seem curious or abhorrant to observers then? In any case, i flat don't believe in the sincerity of this new-found jew love. it looks to me like Europe and the U.S. are already cutting deals with the arabs to eventually sell out the Israilis.

[Rob S.]

it looks to me like Europe and the U.S. are already cutting deals with the arabs to eventually sell out the Israilis.

We wouldn't have to if an all out offensive wasn't launched. And if Sharon wasn't so "I'm right and they're wrong!" Israel is a modernized army with well trained soldiers. The Palestinians still have bolt-action rifles and variated AK47's and are made up of volunteers.

In this situation, you don't simply attack tanks...because you have nothing to kill them with. Ambushes are the only feasable defense in this sort of operation. Since the modern army is comprised of mechanized vehicles....what exactly would expect them to do???

Ambush defenses many times lead to suicide. Since it is more effective to lob a bomb into a load of people than to fire a bolt-action rifle; why not do it?

I'm not for the suicide bombings in Palestine. But I understand them. Since the Palestinians really have no weapons to fight Israel with, they will simply stoop to the lowest form and most effective form of defense.

[kellysartin]

well, now we are going off topic. but; nothing i have learned about Islam suggests they want 5 acres, or 500 acres, or 5,000 acres, or 500,000 acres, or- they want IT ALL.sure Arafat wants peace- a little peace of north palastine, a little piece of south palastine, a little peace of east and west palastine. " if we didn't have to " indeed!

[Marcus]

Off topic.