Gestapo & NKVD Conferences

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Benoit Douville
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Gestapo & NKVD Conferences

Post by Benoit Douville » 26 Feb 2008 02:39

They have been rumors that Beria and Himmler also meet in the Zakopane conferences, any truth to that?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gestapo-NKVD_Conferences

Art
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Re: Gestapo & NKVD Conferences

Post by Art » 26 Feb 2008 14:32

That is what I can found:
One Polish legend

If we type the words “NKVD”, “Gestapo”, “Krakov” and “Zakopane” in a search engine we’ll immediately get a lot of statements that Polish cities Krakov and Zakopane in late 1939 – 1940 were the place of cooperation between the NKVD and Gestapo. Joint conferences on “struggle against Polish rebels” were held there, there was a joint NKVD-Gestapo school etc. These are the statements we’re going to verify now.
For a start let’s read what is written on NKVD and Gestapo joint activity.

The most detailed description is made by some Polish priest Jusef Dembinksi: “The fisrt conference on cooperation between Soviet and German security services took place on 27th September 1939 in Brest on Bug. It was devoted to both services’ activity on struggle against Polish opposition and sabotage. The second conference was held in late November in Przemysl and dealt with exchange of POWs and population transfer. But the most terrible in consequences was the methodical conference between NKVD and Gestapo which took place in Zakopane on 20th February 1940. The German delegation was headed by Adolf Eichmann and the Soviet – by Grigory Litvinov. The decisions made during the conference had the most serious consequences on methods of genocide of Polish people.” Quite naturally padre don’t reveal his sources of information and the thing that prevent to take his words on trust is claiming Litivinov and Eichmann to be the heads of delegations. In February 1940 Eichmann was just a referent of the Gestapo “Jewish” section and had nothing to do with Polish underground. The situation with Litvinov is even worse. If they mean diplomat Litvinov, than his name was Maxim but not Grigory and he had nothing common with struggle against Polish underground. Of course, they could mean some NKVD officer, however we could find such name neither in the fundamental handbook “How headed the NKVD 1934-1941” nor in the personal references in the book “The state security organs in the Great Patriotic War”.
The Polish historian Petr Kolakowski believes that contacts between the NKVD and Gestapo were effected by “the NKVD general Nabrahnikov” (Kolakowski P. NKWD i GRU na ziemiach polskich, 1939 - 1945. Warzawa, 2002. S. 66). Unfortunately, the name Nabrashnikov doesn’t appear in the handbook on the NKVD leaders as well.

By the way, unlike the Polish priest, professional historians doesn’t enlighten as with details and the plot of NKVD-Gestapo cooperation in Krakov is outlined more than laconically. For example, history doctor N. S. Lebedeva in the article “The fourth partition of Poland” writes that “In Zakopane in December 1939 the joint training center of security services was founded and the conversations between the leading officials of the NKVD and Gestapo took place”/ As the source of information she refers the book Piekalkiewicz J. Hitler und Stalin zerschlagen die Polnische Republik. Berish Gladbach, 1982, most probably published in emigration.

Belorussian history doctor Igor Kuznetzov wites in “The Belorussian business paper”: “According to the instructions of the Imperial Security Ministry the SD established a close contact with NKVD officials on the territory of Western Belorussia. With this goal a training center was created in Zakopane, in which SS and NKVD men were studying the science of struggle against Polish underground”. Kuznetzov doesn’t specify from what source this information was taken.
Pole Machey Kozlovsky is more frank and names his sources: “In autumn 1990 the Soviet weekly journal “The New Time” published an article by S. Kuratov and A. Polyakov which andvanced a hypothesis that the execution of polish officers in spring 1940 was a pre-planned and coordinated action of the Gestapo and NKVD. The collusion could be made in the beginning of March 1940 on the conference in Zakopane (this conference and agreements concerning actions against Polish resistance movements were described by historian N. Davies in his research on the Warsaw uprising). We know about the “methodical conferences” held by The Gestapo and NKVD also from the researches of S.Demsky, the author of the large monograph “Between Berlin and Moscow: The Soviet-German relations in 1939-41” He also gives a specific details of these meetings, but arrives to a conclusion that no convincing proofs of the relation between these meetings and Katyn case are found by now.

Let’s examine the sources. The book by Mr. Piekalkiewicz which was referred by Lebedeva couldn’t be treated as a reliable source due to a simple reason that Polish emigrants didn’t have an access to documental sources and were forced to rely on rumors. I didn’t manage to get a book by S. Dembsky reffered by Kozlovski. But the book by Davies which was referred by Kozlovski too (“this conference and agreements concerning actions against Polish resistance movements were described by historian N. Davies in his research on the Warsaw uprising”, by the way Davies writes about SS) has only one sentence devoted to the history of NKVD-Gestapo conferences. But Davies clearly writes that about the absence of documental evidences about this conference (Davies N. Rising ' 44: The Battle for Warsaw. London, 2004. P. 91).
However, we are persuaded that documental sources does exist: “Polish historian have found a confirmation of the meeting of the NKVD and Gestapo officials meeting in the occupied resort Zakopane to plan a joint actions against Polish intellectuals.”

We can understand what kind of documents these are if we read the article of already mentioned I. Kuznetzov: ”The German documents published in 1989 in the book by Polish historian Ch. Maindanek are an evidence that in the beginning of 1940 the negotiations between the USSR and Germany were under way. In March the meeting of NKVD’s and Gestapo‘s representatives on that issue was held in Krakov and Zakopane. Inaccessibility of documents concerning Soviet-German negotiations regarding Polish issues doesn’t allow to shed light upon the problem discussed. We don’t know the exact date of conference in Zakopane. It seems that the reference to documents exists but they pertain to completely different issue. And as it turned out there are no documents concerning “the conferences in Krakov and Zakopane”.
The reference to the primary source of information about “conferences” can be found in the book by already mentioned P. Kolakowski. It turns out that for the first time this information appeared in the memoirs of Polish general Bor-Komarovski. Bor-Komarovksi made a reference to the data of ZWZ intelligence which found that an NKVD commission arrived to Krakov in March 1940. (Kolakowski P. NKWD i GRU... S. 67).

However, here we deal with the mistake of intelligence. The Soviet delegation indeed arrived to Krakov, but it had nothing to do with the NKVD. It was revealed by Russian historian O. Vishlev after addressing the German archival data. “On 29-31 March 1940 Krakov was visited by representatives of the Soviet commission, but it was not “a special NKVD commission”, as it was claimed by some western and native authors following Bor-Komarowski, but a Soviet control-admission commission on refugees’ evacuation. This commission as well as an analogous German one was created based on the intergovernmental agreement. The Soviet delegation consisted of tree members: V.S. Egnarov, I.I. Nevsky (a chairman and a member of the Chief Soviet Commission on refugees’ evacuation respectively) and V.N. Lisin (a member of local commission). The tasks of the delegation comprised discussion of a number of issues concerning organization of exchange of refugees and signing of the protocol with German representatives.”
Let’s make tentative conclusions: there are no documental evidences of the meeting between the NKVD and Gestapo representatives in Krakov and Zakopane. The Soviet-German conference was indeed held in Krakov but it was devoted not to the struggle against Polish underground but to the exchange of refugees.

And what about joint school in Zakopane? Of course, it’s another myth. The fact is that a Gestapo school in Zakopane indeed existed in 1939-40. But it’s unlikely that someone could think about allowing Soviet representatives here, in that school Ukrainian nationalist were trained which could be used only against the USSR. This episode is described in the book “Sword and trident. The notes on the history of OUN Security Service” by D. Vedenev and V. Egorov. If one takes into account that Zakopane is a small town, that an existence of two Gestapo schools here – anti-Soviet and pro-Soviet is simply impossible.
So all the stories about cooperation between the NKVD and Gestapo in Zakopane are a pure myth. Though a very popular myth which got a foothold even in Wikipedia.
The original artilce by Alexander Dykov (in Russian) is available here:
http://a-dyukov.livejournal.com/94091.html
Dyukov is frequently rather sarcastic but the main conslusion, i.e. that the source of the rumors about joint conferences was the meeting on evacuation of refugees, seems to be valid. Pay attention that wikipedia aricle add some additional details to the classical description of conferences, that must be attributed to "the broken phone effect".

JoeW
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Re: Gestapo & NKVD Conferences

Post by JoeW » 27 Feb 2008 14:49

Very interesting research and revelations. I suppose that we shall soon see a documentary of revelation on the History Channel about the RSHA/NKVD cooperation based on the Winkepedia article. That should be enough research for them.

Orlov
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Re: Gestapo & NKVD Conferences

Post by Orlov » 17 Feb 2020 07:35

Art wrote:
26 Feb 2008 14:32
That is what I can found:
One Polish legend [...] Dyukov is frequently rather sarcastic but the main conslusion, i.e. that the source of the rumors about joint conferences was the meeting on evacuation of refugees, seems to be valid. Pay attention that wikipedia aricle add some additional details to the classical description of conferences, that must be attributed to "the broken phone effect".
There are no RSHA documents on this subject - they were destroyed (in any case, the R-58 is a rudimentary folder at Bundesarchiv Berlin).
We don't know what's in the FSB Central Archive.
This does not mean that there was not in 1940 any RSHA-NKVD conference in occupied Zakopane or Cracow.
Basing knowledge on an article written by Alexander Dyukov - the Kremlin propagandist is not the best solution. I remind you that Alexander Dyukov is a source of frequent "leaks" from above mentioned archive - but only on the topics of "Lithuanian and Ukrainian fascists" - he has recently become active in the Polish direction.
Unfortunately, Dyukov is the product of the Russian propaganda war (and post-Soviet thinking).

Art
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Re: Gestapo & NKVD Conferences

Post by Art » 17 Feb 2020 14:23

You see what who really took part in those meeting in Krakow and what they discussed is well known:
viewtopic.php?f=79&t=241837
It is very different from wikipedia nonsense.
This does not mean that there was not in 1940 any RSHA-NKVD conference in occupied Zakopane or Cracow.
It doesn't mean that there was no RASH-reptiloid conference either. My opinion is simple: a historical event is a thing whose reality is supported by positive and reliable evidences. If no evidences present then it's a myth.

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