what if allies keep moving EAST??

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Andy Krause
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what if allies keep moving EAST??

Post by Andy Krause » 12 Mar 2002 20:22

the allies keep moving east,patton gets what he wants and leads the way to russia,and the allies inhabit two more armies to their invasion,italy and germany(whats left of them anyway) do the allies reach moscow?or do they fail just as Hitler and Napoleon did? :twisted:

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Post by Arminius » 12 Mar 2002 21:08

The Allied forces were tired of fighting after WWII, and therefore unwilling to attack the SU. Destruction (with A-bombs) was an option (until 1948), but conquest never was.
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IAR80
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Final thrust ...

Post by IAR80 » 15 Mar 2002 22:29

Highly unlikely, but suppose the allies decided that no form of tyranny or dictatorship can be tolerated and went to war.
First off, the Americans now had to at least back the europeans in their struggle with materials.
Things don't look good: Western Europe is in ruins and the allies are tired of war, USSR churns out tanks and planes by the thousands and have milions of troops at their disposal fighting the Great Peoples' War.
However the allies do have a couple of trump cards:
- The A bomb ; needless to say it is by far the most useful
- Eastern Europe : contrary to the general belief, the nations of eastern Europe were not that friendly towards the USSR, Poland was invaded by USSR in 1939, and in the summer of 1944 the soviets did nothing to help the Warsaw uprising, Czehoslovakia did not want to have anything to do with russians and communism, see the uprisings in 1956, Romania again did not support USSR, because it wanted to stay a monarchy or have a democratic regime anyway, and throughout its history Romania and Russia came together only by having common enemies, Hungary did not support USSR either, see 1956 uprising, Yugoslavia liberated itself, and Tito was not a commie hardliner, Bulgaria surrounded but anti-commies would be forced to join in, Greece obviously would reject communism, and that's about it for Eastern Europe.
- Rearming Germany : A very likely decision, the allies would benefit from very valuable men, the rearming would be gradual though, starting with Luftwaffe, Navy, then the army.
Japan is by now out of the equason, US could simply blocade it indefinately.
Now for the campaign itself ...
Skirmishes along the influence zones, then all out battles. The allies hesitate to use the nuke. Even with the rearmed germans the allies are slowly pushed back. In the Pacific the USMC begins operations in the Far East with the help of Chinese nationalists. In Europe the storm breaks. The sattelite armies of USSR are sent home to refit and then join the great war. It is time to act. Romanians and Yugoslavs make the first move and disarm the soviet occupation armies and capture everything they can. The czehs and slovaks soon follow their example and attack the soviet troops and capture or destroy what they can. Resistance cells also form in Poland. Hungaria, although bitter from losing Transylvania, joins the crusade and takes up arms. Allied troops and equipment is hastily moved from Italy and North Africa to the new theatre in the Balkans. Bulgaria also joins in. The hungarians, romanians, yugoslavs, czehs, slovaks, bulgarians and allied troops including italians all fight on a common front stretching from southern Germany to the Black Sea. The Soviets respond brutally, however their offensive is stopped by the coalition which makes good use of the mountaineous terrain.
August 1945
In the west the allies are pushed back to the border with France, in the Balkans battles are violent but the front is holding for the moment, in the Far East marines have captured Vladivostok and in China nationalists have made significant gains.
The Americans move bombers into Finland and Romania. On the 1st of September, 0300 hrs B-29s escorted by fighters take off from airfields in the aforementioned countries. The first one raids Moscow and drops one nuke on the way back on St. Petersburg, while the second raids Kiev and nukes Sevastopol.At 0600 hrs troops concentrated in the Balkans now thrust north trying to cut off red divisions fighting in the west. A titanic battle then ensues, allies now reinforced by the eastern europeans plus many italian and spanish volunteers equipped with western weaponry, the western allies advance with the rest securing their flanks, in the air the free world battles the reds. Winter arrives and the forces of the free world manage to reach the baltic sea thanks largely to the polish partisans. The soviet mammotth is trapped on foreign land and slowly grinded into submission. The new front is on the Vistula and stretches south.
On New Years' Eve two more bombers set off, their targets are Moscow and Smolensk. The two cities go up in smoke at 00.15 a.m 1st Jan 1946, despite thick flak.
In the Far East the Enola Gay nukes Novosibirsk, with Canadian, Australian and New Zeeland mountain troops fighting their way towards Irkutsk.
The renewed offensive continues in Feb with both sides throwing everything into this battle. The allies have rallied every soldier possible, including morrocans, brazilians, albanians, norwegians, finns, mexicans, etc. USSR collapses under the weight of the sheer masses thrown aganist it and the constant pummeling of bombers and V rockets now used by allies. One more nuke would be dropped on Stalins' HQ while he was negotiating secretly with allied envoys, the envoys being beacons, and the nuke delivered via a modified V-3.
So ends communism. Communism in China lasts 2 more years, crushed by the Coalition of the Free World, military equivalent of UN, soon after the civil war in Greece ends too and everyone lives happily ever after yadda, yadda...

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Angelo
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Final thrust ...

Post by Angelo » 18 Mar 2002 01:17

Easy answer: they would not even get close to Smolensk, not to mention Moscow.

It took them 2 years to conquer Italy where they had an overwhelming air and naval superiority while the Germans had to number their artillery shells due to their increasing shortages... Now, let's not resort to the old story of Italy's prevailing mountainous and highly defendable terrain which only served to mask the unforgivable strategic and tactical mistakes made by the joint Chiefs of Staff.

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LeoAU
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u r joking, right?

Post by LeoAU » 20 Mar 2002 07:41

How many missions would US have to fly before deploying AB? I really hope that you are not sending AB in the middle of Russia on the first mission! So, Soviets would prepare and have cover in those areas, AA, fighters. It's not Japan, USSR had huge resourses and excellent planes and pilots (sadly enough, you are probably unaware of this fact). That B29 with AB has very high chances of being shot somewhere in the middle nowhere. :cry:

Even if you manage to hit any Soviet city - what impact on USSR morale or economy would it have? I hope I don't have to prove even to you than on USSR military 1 or 2 bomb wouldn't have any effect, neither would on economy. Morale - the only thing that could be shaken. But with such outrages bombing of innocent cities - everyone in USSR would just blood hungry and allies would get second patriotic war waged at them. :evil:
I hope you are aware of 1950's plans of preventive bombing of some 200 Soviet cities (or bombing with some 200 AB bombs?). Soviet tank armies in Europe still were a threat and US obviously didn't use the plan.

Rearmed Germans? This one is very doubtful. You can't have yugoslavs, czehs, slovaks, polish etc next to their yesterday's occupiers and hope all of that would fight Soviets not each other.

Another HUGE problem - what are you going to do with Japan? Since USSR doesn't destroy Kwantung army (~1mln strong) and US doesn't nuke Japan? Do you realise that most likely USSR allies with Japan? And those in a matter of weeks together with Chinese communists occupy the whole middle east and asia? :lol:

Also some flows. Bulgaria didn't declare war on USSR when Hitler was next to Moscow or right on Volga river. And you expect Bulgaria 'join in' being occupied by Soviets? :P

Yugoslavs against Russians? You must be dreaming! Never!
Polish? Despite so called 'occupation' in 39 by Soviets - Polish fought side by side with Soviets. Polish Army was commanded by Soviets, in tank crews - the commander was a Soviet officer, other members - Polish soldiers. And when rearmed Germans will start coming from the west again I just can't see a single Polish raising arm against Soviets.

:arrow: Operation Bagration 2. (I hope you know the results on the 1st one!). 2 -3 weeks and Soviets wash their boots in Atlantic ocean. Thousands of IS-2's and by that time of IS-3's - what could be done against them while you sitting there and thinking where to drop your 2 AB?

:lol:

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re

Post by IAR80 » 20 Mar 2002 08:30

First off you seem anaware of the little holocaust the commies pulled off. You are speaking of the russians like they were a bunch of nice guys. Wrong. They had Stalin remember. His purges in occupied territories were just as cruel as those in the 1930s. The "liberated" slav poeple must have been just as gullable as you and they were quickly and brutally dissappointed. Second, I just gave the general facts about the campaign. Of course the raids would most likely be massive at first an by nightime, USSR having poor radar and poor nightfighters. A-bomb could be deployed again by night time from bases in Finland, Romania, Iran, China, India, not to mention refuelling.
Second: JAPAN WAS DEFEATED. Do remember from you last geography lesson that Japan has absolutely no resources of any kind and very little agriculture. Stripped of its colonies Japan could simply be quarantined.
Third: The allies were outnumbered but numbers aren't everything. The allies now possesed bazookas and other personal AT weapons. The allied pilots were much more experienced. The remob of Germany would start at first WITH PILOTS, which were viewed at the time the "less murderous" of the nazis. You also forget the allies had some very good commanders.
Fourth: A-bomb could be deployed during a secret negociation meeting between US and USSR. Say, the negotiators arrive, talk and plan to talk more the next day. That night a B-29, or better yet an me262 carrying a smaller a-bomb, nukes that place. The meeting was secret but Stalin gets nuked.
My friend, you aren't thinking out of the box.

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LeoAU
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no mate, you are JOKING!!!

Post by LeoAU » 20 Mar 2002 23:33

:lol: :lol: :lol:
ok, lets stop laughing...

First: 'little holocaust the commies pulled off'. If you could show me what you mean and provide me with some facts maybe your post would make any sence. What holocaust? DO you kow what holcaust means? How can you apply it to what Soviets 'did' in occupied territories? Soviets were hursh on Germans but they deserved it.
All the Slav people were liberated, but with your nazi oriented brains it is hard to comprehend, I'll try to explain. They were liberated - from subhuman tag, second class people who they were under nazies, from gas chambers, concentration camps etc. Can you show me any evidence of Soviets doing anything of that? So, next time think what holocaust really was. And who saved those still held in conc camps.

Night raids. How are you going to navigate at night? Do you know approximately the size of USSR? (Hint - it's several times bigger than US, and many time bigger than Germany).
Now really try to use your head: how many years of bombing took allies to produce any impact on Germany with day and night raids? Do you know that Germnay's production increased by some 300% despite all the bombings? Now mupliply all that time by Soviet territory and you would understand that if US started bombing in 45, by today USSR still would've had half of its industry intact!

Second: Japan wasn't defeated until 2 AB were dropped and until Soviets destroyed Kwantung army (do you know that they did ? - just curious). And you do understand that USSR could supply them with everything they needed. :wink:

Third: 'The allies now possesed bazookas and other personal AT weapons' - your point?? German possesed same stuff during the course of war, did it save them? Are you trying to say that bazooka was a great anti - tank weapon :?:

'The allied pilots were much more experienced ' than who? Soviet pilots? I hope you didn't mean that. Top pilots were Soviet pilots (among allies), most combat experience had Soviet pilots.
German pilots - less murdeous :?: Luftwaffe was a symbol of German offensive, Stukas was the first thing occupied territoris saw.

You still fail to understand that the war would last 3-4 weeks. Soviets occupy Europe, England cries for peace and out of the war, all the Europian air bases are overrun, same happens to Middle East bases, China, being communist country raises arms against US troops. After that , how can you deliver your AB to USSR?
After that US alone vs USSR? :lol:

And the main point. How can you tell to American public that we have to fight our yesterday's ally? How do you think americans would react after 200K+ casualtries so far?

P.S. How old are you may I ask?

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Doughhhhh...

Post by IAR80 » 21 Mar 2002 07:36

That's it. Someone close this darn topic!
All I've been doing is enlighten the minds of ignorants instead of having a elevated discussion on this hypothetical campaign.
LeoAU, it would take me twice as much post lenght to bring facts to support my opinions, facts and figures which I thought were understood.
I've had it! I aint touching this topic ever again!

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Tiwaz
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Finnish participation

Post by Tiwaz » 21 Mar 2002 08:37

It's not very likely or easy to get Finns involved ni this fight. In this scenario Finns just recently got out of damn long and bloody fight with Russians where both sides suffered quite large casualties. And troops are very tired.

Finns would definitely hesitate to start another war after finishing Continuation war and Lapland war.
So more likely Finns will stay out of this unless either side decides to make something really stupid like crossing border.

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Post by LeoAU » 21 Mar 2002 23:25

All I've been doing is enlighten the minds of ignorants instead of having a elevated discussion on this hypothetical campaign.


All you've been doing - sweet greaming. I didn't want to get too hursh on you - looking at your post I made a conclusion that you are probably a teenager who likes comics and watched history channel couple of times (I don't mean to offend you).
Just couple of pearls from your posts - allies have bazookas and AB's, therefore they win. :?: :?: :?: Could you have a discent discussion against such statements?? You know little to nothing about Eastern Europe, slavs and how they are connected, yet you are trying to convince me that they will unite with defeated Germans to fight Soviets!?!

or how about this one:
A-bomb could be deployed during a secret negociation meeting between US and USSR.

and what happens with American delegation? :) And do you believe Stalin goes there himself?? And what secret negociation? Soviets would accept ally's capitulation somewhere in London or Paris and it wouldn't be secret, and no Stalin there for sure.
Me262 carrying AB? Could that plane lift the damn thing, and what 'small' bomb - US had 2 in August - pretty big ones. And do you know the range of Me262?

P.S.Yes, I think it is time for you to quit the discussion because you lucking real knowledge. Try to read more on USSR weapons, people, morale, army. And you will undrestand that USSR had the strongest and more capable army. US had AB's but even in 50-60's they couldn't use that advantage let alone in 45 with 2 of them.
In 45 there was nothing alllies could do against USSR. Though you are very welcome to bring facts to support my opinions, facts and figures Yes, bring more 'facts' that support your 'facts'! :lol: [/quote]

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White flag waving

Post by IAR80 » 22 Mar 2002 22:31

Fine... well then if the USSR's socialist dream was too bright then for the people to see through it, what stopped Stalin from applying the coupe the grace to democracy?

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Soviets...

Post by Kampfhund13 » 22 Mar 2002 22:49

If they kept moving east, they would have come across the Commie's "endless railroads" sooner or later... the railroads that lead nowhere... where it's reported (and proven later) they were actually well disguised mass graves of the Communist mass slaughter of the Russian people, especially christians. If anyone has more info on them, post it!

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Post by Andy Krause » 24 Mar 2002 01:41

kan't we all just get along?? lol :twisted:

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Kampfhund13
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...

Post by Kampfhund13 » 24 Mar 2002 02:35

LOL! Been a while since I heard that... 8)

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LeoAU
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Re: Soviets...

Post by LeoAU » 24 Mar 2002 23:01

Kampfhund13 wrote:If they kept moving east, they would have come across the Commie's "endless railroads" sooner or later... the railroads that lead nowhere... where it's reported (and proven later) they were actually well disguised mass graves of the Communist mass slaughter of the Russian people, especially christians. If anyone has more info on them, post it!

if they TRIED to move east, they never would've pernetrated Soviet defeces tehrefore never entered eastern europe let alone territory of USSR to discover non existent 'mass graves' of communist 'mass slaughter'. What they would discover, mass graves of innocent women and children killed by invaders - Germans, and mass graves of super humans next to the graves of women and children.

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