Waffenfarbe

Discussions on all aspects of WW1, WW2 and Inter-War Era reenactment.
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Dare Furor
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Re: Waffenfarbe

Post by Dare Furor » 03 Apr 2008 21:20

jugendkrieger wrote:I'd find one that you are happy with and call it a day.

Marc



Sounds like a plan.

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nihil
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Re: Waffenfarbe

Post by nihil » 03 Apr 2008 22:38

craigob wrote:try to doing the same with signals and Cavalry, ask for lemon yellow boards and litzen and they send Cavalry... why?.. cos it yellow and it *looks the same.. great..


Have you mannaged to find a source of more-correct lemon yellow shoulder boards ?
I also got my share of cavalry stuff...but it looks really odd, when the rest of the unit is actually doing cavalry :oops:

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craigob
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Re: Waffenfarbe

Post by craigob » 03 Apr 2008 23:53

alas no... I have even tried a yellow magic marker on white infantry boards. At $8.00 for a pair of boards it no big loss

cpittman
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Re: Waffenfarbe

Post by cpittman » 04 Apr 2008 13:52

Panzergrenadier piping is the lighter shade of green, and Jaeger/Gebirgsjaeger piping a darker shade, with Verwaltung darker still. I have researched this ad nauseam and I am extremely confident of the veracity of this statement. I have found photos of countless surviving artifacts that are attributed with solid provenance to their original owners and the light green stuff is Panzergrenadier. Also, surviving visor caps with emblems or unit stamps for Jaeger or Gebirgsjaeger units always have the forest green piping. Gebirgsjaeger piped visors are more commonly encountered than Panzergrenadier; similarly, Panzergrenadier piping is the most common type of late-war M44 shoulder board. This reflects the historical ratio of these branches in the pre-war and the late-war periods very logically. I own an untouched original M43 tunic for a Jaeger Obergefreiter with factory applied insignia and the shoulder boards have the forest green piping. Our unit used to wear green piping before we found that motorized Grenadier regiments within a Panzergrenadier-Division wore white piping. We wore the darker (wrong) piping as advertised (wrongly) as correct by so many reenactment vendors. At one display, a German veteran saw us, looked at our boards and warmly exclaimed "Gebirgsjaeger!" Embarrasing. I believe all the confusion comes from the U.S. War Department TM-E 30-451: Handbook on German Military Forces, from 1945. This book includes a Waffenfarbe chart that must have been a standard reference in the early days of this hobby. And the colors are shown wrongly in there, either as a result of a printing error, or because the original wartime American intelligence was wrong, I don't know. And another thing- Panzergrenadier litzen NEVER EXISTED! The term Panzergrenadier was not used until 1942; the Heer had been using generic litzen starting in November 1938! All the Reddick stuff shown is appropriate for Jaeger. The original items in the photos from the Collectors Guild are correctly identified. I will add that none of this confusion exists among collectors- if a hat with dark piping were to be sold as a more desirable Panzergrenadier hat, it would be an outrage. The confusion seems limited to reenacting and I believe this is a direct result of the vendors who have been misidentifying this stuff since the beginning.

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Drew Maynard
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Re: Waffenfarbe

Post by Drew Maynard » 04 Apr 2008 14:17

chris- thanks for the clarification.

i believe the pz.gr. litzen everyone uses, is a reproduction of errata, simply taken as fact and passed on until it's 'true', in reenacting circles. correct me if i'm wrong, should not late war pz.gr. be wearing the 'generic' litzen suitable for late war?

so, panzergrenadier- light green waffenfarbe piping on boards.
mot. regt. in a panzergrenadier div.- white waffenfarbe.

correct?

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Dare Furor
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Re: Waffenfarbe

Post by Dare Furor » 04 Apr 2008 14:56

Drew Maynard wrote:...a reproduction of errata, simply taken as fact and passed on until it's 'true', in reenacting circles....


...This is an example of what I call a "re-enachronism." :lol: :cry:

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cpittman
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Re: Waffenfarbe

Post by cpittman » 04 Apr 2008 16:12

Drew, you are correct. Armored infantry regiments were originally called Schuetzen-Regimenter. In Panzer divisions they wore standard field grey field blouses with pink waffenfarbe, and an "S" device on the shoulder strap above the unit number. Panzergrenadier regiments were formed on July 5, 1942 when all Schuetzen regiments were renamed. They adopted a new waffenfarbe- "Weisengruen" (meadow green). This is the light green color. For much of this research and what follows, I am indebted to our unit Haptfeldwebel, Noah Tietze, who uncovered this stuff during the never-ending research we put into our portrayal. Noah located a German OKW Document titled "Truppenkennzeichen Schulterklappen Heer (Gem. „Grundlegenden Befehl Nr. 21" AHA Stab IB (Bekl) 21 – September 1944)." This is the offical decree of what was supposed to be worn by all units. This document lists as following (edited for comparison):

Die Schulterklappen der Uniformen des Heeres tragen
- eine Umrandung in der Waffenfarbe
- die Nummer des Truppenteils (Ausnahmen siehe unten)
- in vielen Fällen Buchstaben oder Zeichen, welche die Truppengattung erkennen lassen

A) Waffenfarben: (Einzelheiten unter B 3.2.)
- WEISS Infanterie-Truppe
- WIESENGRÜN Schützen-Rgt., Panzer-Gren.Rgt

3.2. arabische Nummer, dazu Waffenfarbe:
- WEISS Infanterie-, Grenadier-, Füsilier-Rgt., Inf. Btl (z.b.V.)
Infanterie-Rgt (mot), Grenadier-, Füsilier-Rgt (mot)
Füsilier-Btl ohne Kavallerietradition
- WIESENGRÜN Schützen-Rgt., Kavallerie-Schützen-Rgt, Panzer-Gren.Rgt

So as you can see, Grenadier-Regimenter (mot) wore white piping. What piping was worn was determined not by the Division, but by the unit within the division.

Generally speaking, all soldiers with late-war impressions should wear generic litzen as these were the litzen applied at the factory when the field blouse was made starting in 1938. However, some soldiers liked the look of early insignia and would replace the factory applied insignia with early stuff when they could get it. This was of course the exception to the rule. Mostly this practice was done by long-serving NCOs who still had early stuff. Early tunics that were being reissued were reissued with wartime generic litzen, it is very common in period pictures to see M36 tunics worn with final pattern generic litzen sewn directly to the collar. For soldiers in Panzergrenadier units, using early insignia was not an option because Panzergrenadier litzen never existed, if they had leftover early insignia it would have been the pink piped stuff used in Schuetzen units. In December 1944 all motorized Grenadier regiments were renamed Panzergrenadier regiments but at that late point in the war I would assume that insignia changes were not a priority, though certainly some units would have been issued new boards and some officers would have had the opportunity to get new insignia as well. I believe that it was this edict that created all the Panzergrenadier M44 boards on the collector market today.

Just to make matters a bit more confusing, there did exist litzen for enlisted Schutzpolizei uniforms that had all three stripes in a light green color that is supposed to be the "Hellgruen" (light green) color used by Jaeger but with age, manufacturing differences, etc. they can appear to be Weisengruen. These are different from the pre-1938 Heer litzen that had only the two outer stripes in the branch color while the larger middle stripe was a dark green.

Hellgruen Schutzpolizei insignia is easy to find, and is a good way to see more examples of the color that was used by Jaeger and Gebirgsjaeger (but not Panzergrenadier) regiments.

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rednas
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Re: Waffenfarbe

Post by rednas » 04 Apr 2008 23:51

I found this some time ago, I don't know the source, but looking at it both is correct:
Image

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