Das Reich and no...

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Juha Hujanen
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Das Reich and no...

Post by Juha Hujanen » 05 Jan 2003 16:45

Because X Waffen-SS Division and no prisoners posts seems to be popular,lets focus on Das Reich Division.

There is no shortage of rumours of different units and that they didn't take prisoners for several days but this one has more authoritative source.In Max Hastings:Das Reich.The march of The 2nd SS Panzer Division Through France,is in page 17 a reminiscence of SS-Stantarderfuhrer Karl Kreutz,who was commander of Reich artillery Regiment and finaly CO of whole Das Reich.
"(He) remembered the discovery of an ambulance column,with 40 German wounted systematically butchered by the Russians with their doctor.The order came down from division to take no prisoners for 8 days.Was the order obeyed? ´Of cource´.

Normally i am very sceptical with this kind of accounts,but when it comes from such a high level, it's hard to ignore it.Have anyone further info about this case?.Mayby you Das Reich experts Dan and Mark?

Regards/Juha

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Translator
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Post by Translator » 05 Jan 2003 18:41

Juha,

I don't know specifically about the case you mention with "Das Reich", but in the recently published book "Platz der Leibstandarte", which shows previously unpublished photographs taken by an SS-Kriegsberichter during the Kharkov operation Feb.-March '43, a similar episode is documented. The Soviets had slipped behind an LSSAH column and attacked, massacred and mutilated the personnel of a medical/supply base. Reprisals consisted of an imposed "no prisoners" policy; some of the graphic photos in the book show isolated Russians being hunted down and machine-gunned from halftracks. This appears to have been "common policy" in the war in the East, and may well have carried over to other theatres of operations.

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Juha Hujanen
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Post by Juha Hujanen » 06 Jan 2003 14:55

Hi Traslator.The photos you mentioned were discussed in lenght little time ago in this same forum.

Regards/Juha

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Translator
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Post by Translator » 06 Jan 2003 15:10

Juha,

OK. My point was that, if it could happen with LSSAH in the East then it follows that it could happen with Das Reich in the West, with or without documented proof. Enough said.

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Starinov
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Post by Starinov » 20 Aug 2003 01:54

Translator wrote:the recently published book "Platz der Leibstandarte"


Is this book published in English?

Rob - wssob2
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RZM book

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 20 Aug 2003 18:54

Yes it's in English and available at

http://www.rzm.com/books/rzm/lah.cfm

The title refers to the LSSAH division renaming the main plaza in Kharkov "Bodyguard Square" in honor of their recent capture of the city.

Its a great collection of photos, mostly from W-SS war reporters.

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Dan Reinbold
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Post by Dan Reinbold » 20 Aug 2003 20:34

Hi Juha,

I would be a bit skeptical of Hasting's book because of the numerous errors within that text - I have read the same account attributed to Kreutz, however, I have not found mention of it in any other source. Perhaps the official Das Reich histories by Weidinger (once they are translated) can shed some light on this topic - since volume 4 and 5 cover more of the period that Kreutz is referencing. I read German too slowly to be able to get through them in German - so I am still waiting for the next books to be translated. :)

That being said, I would not be surprised that "take no prisoner" orders were issued and followed. It is very characteristic of the battles on the eastern front that both sides often times did not "go out of their way" to make sure that prisoners were taken and treated properly.

I hope this helps,

Dan

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Post by tonyh » 21 Aug 2003 10:37

I too would not be surprised that a word of mouth "no prisoner" OFTD would have been issued from time to time. Quite simply ALL armies at one point or another "issue" these kind of orders.

Tony

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Juha Hujanen
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Post by Juha Hujanen » 21 Aug 2003 14:58

Ok,Thanks Dan & co.I would be surprised if Weidinger have written about such orders,not really his "style" :roll: .
Undeniably Estern front was very brutal and very harsh orders were issued.I was just wondering if this case would be first one when such orders are admided later.

Regards/Juha

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Post by Doppelkopf » 26 Aug 2003 16:45

Dan Reinbold wrote:Perhaps the official Das Reich histories by Weidinger (once they are translated) can shed some light on this topic - since volume 4 and 5 cover more of the period that Kreutz is referencing. I read German too slowly to be able to get through them in German - so I am still waiting for the next books to be translated. :)


Nothing in Weidinger's 6 volumes.

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Post by Svennie » 28 Aug 2003 20:35

Ealier this year German TV channel ZDF broadcasted a series about the SS, one episode dealing with the W-SS. It made mention of massacres in Charkow, showing even some footage of burnt corpses. No telling whether footage was actually from Charkow.

Sven

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Dan Reinbold
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Post by Dan Reinbold » 29 Aug 2003 05:30

Doppelkopf wrote:
Nothing in Weidinger's 6 volumes.


Wow you read them through that fast! :D Just kidding of course...thanks for the clarification Doppelkopf...that doesn't surprise me as Juha indicated - it's not really Weidinger's style.

Cheers...Dan

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