Solving Puzzles - Poland, 1939

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Jan-Hendrik
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Re: Solving Puzzles - Poland, 1939

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 06 Jun 2008 08:44

Below is the list of German 5. Panzer-Division tank casualties in the battle of Pleß according to researches by J.Ryt, the author of the new book on this battle - of course this casualty figures may be incomplete:
I would be interested what sources he claims to have used :wink:

All official documents on 5.PD and VIII.AK on polish campaign did not survive the war (see v.Plato, p.15)....

Jan-Hendrik

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RG
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Re: Solving Puzzles - Poland, 1939

Post by RG » 06 Jun 2008 20:06

Hello to all people . To all who are interested in the actions carried out on September 1939 in Poland; now a query dealing with the gebirgsjägers. While sailing on the web I've stumbled with this sample from historical media about one officer (Leutnant d.r.Volkmar Frobenius) belonging to the 9./GJR 100 - 1 Gebirgsdivision. He fell on September 17 at Dobrostany; I think this action was part of those sustained around Lemberg/Lwow/Lviv in that year (1939). Anyone here could kindly light me up about this struggle?:

Taken from Christoph's site on Sept 17 1939


XVIII.A.K.: surrounded Lemberg from west, north and south and tries to intercept enemy forces in the woods south of Jaworow and northwest of Lemberg.

1.Geb.Div.: is under heavy enemy pressure from outside and inside Lemberg. In the morning enemy forces attack the south of Holosko. Polish artillery fires into the city setting it on fire. In the afternoon the northern part of Holosko is lost to polish forces. Around 16:00 masses of polish troops advance towards Zboiska but are rejected by counter attacks. In the night 17./18.Sept. elements of Geb.Jg.Rgt.98 reject 18 enemy attacks on Holosko.


Thanks in advance. All the best. Raúl M .
The struggle in the region of Zboiska was described from the Polish point of view by general Stanisław Maczek in his book “od podwody do czołga”. With reference to the battle, according to Maczek (at this time colonel and commander of the 10 Brigade of Motorised Cavalry) Zboiska were captured by German company of cyclists “leaded by an officer with polish uniform”. Maczek did not explained it and I am not sure did it mean that Germans used a trick or this officer was just a guide. After it, when Poles decided to recapture Zboiska, the village and surrounding hills with the most important hill 324 were defended by at least 2 battalions of 98 regiment, 2 battalions of 99 regiment and at least one battalion of 100 regiment from mountain division. (soldiers of these troops were taken into captivity during the battle). They were supported by artillery. Participation in the battle solders of 98 and 100 battalion is confirmed by relation you quoted.
Polish forces included entire 10 Motorised brigade (according to Maczek, this time it was about 50-60% of initial fighting strength, 8 canons (I suppose it relates to “heavier” guns only, not AT) and 10 tankiettes (I do not know but maybe a few of the had 20 mm guns). There were also subordinated some other troops – one company of cyclists and 3 cavalry squadrons and platoon of heavy machine guns on machine-gun carts. The hill 324 was captured at 16.00 of 17 of September. In contrary to information you mentioned, this time Zboiska were in polish hands, Maczek wrote that he travelled to Lwów “the shortest way via recaptured Zboiska”. Maybe the village was kept by Poles for a short time (it was lost several times) and it would be probably abandoned by Poles even without any fight since Maczek, after reaching Lwów received an order to withdraw in the region of Halicz to prepare a defence against Soviets after their aggression (it was September the 17th).

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tigre
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Re: Solving Puzzles - Poland, 1939

Post by tigre » 06 Jun 2008 22:10

Thanks for that info RG. Cheers. Raúl M 8-).

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Re: Solving Puzzles - Poland, 1939 - Volkmar Frobenius

Post by lesemery » 08 Jun 2008 12:49

Hi

I have just joined the forum as I was doing a Goggle search for Volkmar Frobenius.

If anyone is interested in them I have copies of various photographs of this soldier and his grave, together with the letter informing his widow of his death etc.

As I cannot read German is there anyone who could interpret if I supply them with a scan copy?

He was killed at Dobrotany and I was wondering if the German cemetery there still exists? If so is there a site similar to the CWGC that details German soldiers graves?

My email address is lsee@bigpond.com

Regards to all

Les Emery
Western Australia

Jan-Hendrik
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Re: Solving Puzzles - Poland, 1939

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 08 Jun 2008 13:21


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tigre
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Re: Solving Puzzles - Poland, 1939

Post by tigre » 08 Jun 2008 19:46

Hello Les :D.
together with the letter informing his widow of his death etc.
It would be great to know if that letter does mentions something more about Dobrostany.........Cheers. Raúl M 8-) .

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Piotr Kapuscinski
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Re: Solving Puzzles - Poland, 1939

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 11 Jun 2008 19:51

I would be interested what sources he claims to have used

All official documents on 5.PD and VIII.AK on polish campaign did not survive the war (see v.Plato, p.15)....

Jan-Hendrik
Hi,

There are 7 pages of listed sources in footnotes for these numbers in his book - including sources from archives, museums, relations, various documents, original photographs.

So these numbers don't come from one source - they come from different sources - both German and Polish, and are summed up - afetr analysis - in this casualty table.

If it comes to official documents on casualties of 5. Panzer-Division - i have supposed that they don't exist.

That of course mean, that - for example - Jentz doesn't include any casualties of that division in his statistics.

As i established too, he certainly didn't also include - among units from the 10th Army - any casualties of 2nd and 3rd Leichte-Divisions and I battalion of 23rd Panzer-Regiment (after summing up casualty figures from other sources for 1st and 4th Panzer and 1st Light divisions - I have discovered, that numbers are exactly the same as numbers given by Jentz for casualties of the whole 10th AOK).

But ofc. Jentz's work is on organizational aspects of Panzerwaffe and history of its transformations (and it's very good), not on Panzerwaffe operations and casualty researches.

Cheers,

Domen

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Richard Hargreaves
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Re: Solving Puzzles - Poland, 1939

Post by Richard Hargreaves » 14 Jun 2008 21:06

Hi Raul,

This might help a little.

Hartfeld and Dobrostany

Before Dobrostany, to the north of Grodek.
Saturday September 16th, in the afternoon.

Behind us, where we’ve come from, farmers toiled in the field – as in the depths of peacetime.
Suddenly shots crash.
Pfui, pfui, pfui whistling over us. The telephone wire along the road begins to swing wildly. Several wires are shot and fall down.
Enemy machine-guns bark in a lively fashion. We leap from the truck and jump into ditches which offer some protection. Gun and machine-gun fire seems to be coming from both sides, the shells of anti-tank guns landing are clearly visible. For several moments the vehicles remain on the road, abandoned; some receive hits. The situation seems to be completely chaotic; the protection of the forest offers good cover for the enemy. Under a hail of bullets, the machine-guns are offloaded, mortars and infantry guns are assembled and brought up. After a short time the first shots crash, we wait instinctively for them to land on the enemy’s side. Shot after shot leaves the barrel, our machine-guns begin to fire with their rapid tack – tack – tack, but the enemy also shoots continually.
Our open ground on the other hand offers bloody awful cover compared with the enemy’s well-camouflaged position. So we go over to the attack, making use of any cover in leaps and bounds. There’s the satisfying rattle of our machine-guns, and the shells hurtling over our heads seem to bring us some relief. As darkness sets in the shooting seems to relax.
Dig in! A potato field is perfect, and ditches and foxholes are quickly dug. We lie next to each other at intervals. We pull our tent cloth over us. The cool of night makes itself felt. The glow of a burning farm very close lights up no man’s land. So we lie in our burrows, the broad heavens arching above us. There’s hardly any thought of sleeping.
“Hurrah – hurrah!” As if a thousand throats are screaming, the cries roar towards us from behind. The noise gets louder, machine-guns bark, for a moment the connection between the two is unclear. Enemy in our rear? Thoughts race through our minds at lightning speed. We can clearly make out: “German soldiers, give yourselves up! Offensive!” Who’s saying that? Orders arrive: The enemy is trying to storm the village to our rear. There’s crashing on all sounds, on all sides bitter fighting. In a flash, the village goes up in bright flames, thick clouds of smoke drift across the entire field. This hellish dance seems to last forever; my watch already shows that it’s 2am. [VII Armeekorps, Wir zogen gegen Polen, Berlin, 1940]

And

Ruins of the Polish Southern Army
Grodek-Jagiellonski, September 18th, 11am


The glow of fires flaring up and the rumble of battle during the night informed us of the bitter battle involving our troops and the Polish divisions which were stubbornly trying to force a breakthrough to Lemberg. This morning we drove there. The road had already been secured; the Kampfgruppen Pemsel, Utz and Kress are clearing out the forest at Dobrostany, ten kilometres north of Grodek, as far as Janow, from where the Munich division is advancing on Lemberg...
We see signs of the hasty retreat on the road to Grodek. A field kitchen has been knocked into a ditch by a shell, abandoned buses stand by the road, Polish caps and sacks lie about in huge numbers. We pass through Ukrainian villages; life continues its course there as if nothing has happened. The farmer drags his plough across the wide field to prepare to sow his grain for the winter; black and white speckled cattle graze in the meadows and maids raise water buckets from wells, herds of geese cry. A refreshing breeze greets us from the forest - the sun toys with the breaking day. A wonderful land appears before us; its fertility is so blatantly contrasted by the poverty of its people. [Leixner, Leo, Von Lemberg bis Bordeaux: Fronterlebnisse eines Kriegsberichters, Franz Eher Verlag, Munich, 1941]

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tigre
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Re: Solving Puzzles - Poland, 1939

Post by tigre » 15 Jun 2008 05:21

Hello Richard, thank you very much for that useful story :wink: . Cheers. Raúl M 8-).

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Piotr Kapuscinski
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Re: Solving Puzzles - Poland, 1939

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 09 Sep 2008 23:02

Jan-Hendrik wrote:
I would be interested what sources he claims to have used :wink:

All official documents on 5.PD and VIII.AK on polish campaign did not survive the war (see v.Plato, p.15)....

Jan-Hendrik
Hi!,

In the book "Geschichte der Hirschberger Jäger" (which is a monograph of 83. Infanterie-Regiment) by Bernhard Kranz (published in 1975) - page 107 - there is an information that 28. Infanterie-Division lost in combat 1442 men killed and wounded in September 1939, including 863 wounded and 579 killed (including missing, presumed dead, who were not found). And there is also a note that many more men from this division were captured by the Poles during the campaign, and were later liberated by the Soviet forces, and then were sent back by them to the Germans.

As far as I know, there is even a name-list of KIA soldiers from 83. Infanterie-Regiment in this book.

How is this possible if all official documents on VIII AK on the Polish Campaign do not exist ??

What was the source of information on these numbers for Bernhard Kranz ?

And am I right that von Plato's book "Die Geschichte der 5. Panzer-Division 1939 - 1945" was published in 1978 - so around three years after Kranz's book ?

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tigre
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Re: Solving Puzzles - Poland, 1939

Post by tigre » 14 Feb 2009 12:07

Hello pals :D; a little story dealing with one gebirgsjäger at Dobrostany, he was Leutnant Frobenius.................

Leutnant Frobenius

Those weren’t only clouds, which were flowed, together ascended smoke columns over the area of Grodek-Jagiellonski – Dobrostany – Hartfeld – Sadowa-Wisnia, where since three days a embittered battle was in course.

The Division of Munich drove the remnants of the Polish divisions back, those that had advanced fiercely against a SS-Standarte at Jawarow. However, the forest gave the poles the possibility to gather their striking force again and again so they could press against the, under extreme strain, gebirgsjägers deployed at Grodek and Dobrostany.

Our bombers attacked the enemy rear disturbing them so they shifted the efforts northwards on the wooded land of Janow-Jaryna. But the barriers held – our casualties weren’t small however – among others the Division’s Staff lost Leutnant Frobenius, an editor of a Munich newspaper, which fell at Dobrostany. Leutnant von Weizenbeck was severely wounded.

“I have a especial task”, said to us Leutnant Frobenius full of joy. At 01:00 o’clock (17 Sep 1939) he drove away in the night wit his special job towards Dobrostany. His departure was in good mood. Now, he followed his father, who fell in 1914, into the soldier’s death; a granade’s splinter struck through his steel helmet.

Source: Von Lemberg bis Bordeaux. Leo Leixner. 1942.
GEBIRGSJAGER Photo Album & Feldpost - OFFICER - GJR 100 - KIA Poland. Historial Media.

Cheers. Raúl M .
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Richard Hargreaves
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Re: Solving Puzzles - Poland, 1939

Post by Richard Hargreaves » 14 Feb 2009 20:23

You can download Leixner for free here:

http://www.archive.org/details/VonLembe ... berichters

although it's not that expensive to buy second-hand on Abe. You shouldn't pay more than about 10-12 Euros for it.

Interesting as PK reporters' accounts go and crammed with pictures. As the title suggests, Leixner followed the Gebirgsdivisions to Lemberg in 1939; he offers quite a good pen portrait of the brutal Ludwig Kübler directing the battle for the city...

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tigre
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Re: Solving Puzzles - Poland, 1939

Post by tigre » 14 Feb 2009 20:57

Thank you very much for that useful link Richard :wink:. All the best. Raúl M 8-).

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Piotr Kapuscinski
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Re: Solving Puzzles - Poland, 1939

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 29 Mar 2009 14:59

The German video below is authentic (not propaganda as for example "Kampfgeschwader Lutzow") and is showing a German ambush against a unit of Polish cyclists in 1939:



A German soldier can be seen - are you able to recognize his unit?

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Piotr Kapuscinski
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Re: Solving Puzzles - Poland, 1939

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 29 Mar 2009 17:09

And here is propaganda - fragments of mentioned "Kampfgeschwader Lutzow" (film made in 1940) :wink: :

In 1:34 Polish propaganda poster "Gwałt zadawany siłą musi być siłą odparty. Swego nie damy napastnika zwyciężymy. W wypadku wojny każdy mężczyzna bez względu na wiek i każda kobieta będą żołnierzami." can be seen:




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