6 million

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mike262752
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6 million

Post by mike262752 » 13 Apr 2002 21:16

How did the Allies come up with 6 million. If a lot of the bodies were burned. I doubt they found any where near 6 million buried bodies. Does anyone know how they came to this number?

Ovidius
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Post by Ovidius » 13 Apr 2002 21:32

They compared the post-war census with the pre-war census and found out that 5.71 million Jews were missing throughout Europe.

Since 352,000 Jews had immigrated from Germany prior to 1939, and another 200,000 from Austria, the overall number of deaths had to be reduced accordingly. Also, there must be deduced those who died from natural death.

The figure given by Raul Hilberg(5.1 million) seems credible, although I would have deduced a few hundreds of thousands more.

The Six Million however had become a sacred number for the Thoughtcrime establishment. Question the number - and you're down and flushed out!

~Ovidius

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Scanderbeg
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to Ovidius

Post by Scanderbeg » 14 Apr 2002 00:00

Ovidius,
This is off-topic but can you tell me what Thoughtcrime is?

Besian

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Scott Smith
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Re: to Ovidius

Post by Scott Smith » 14 Apr 2002 00:34

Scanderbeg88 wrote:Ovidius,
This is off-topic but can you tell me what Thoughtcrime is?

Besian
It was coined by George Orwell in his classic novel 1984 (written in 1948) about a nightmare totalitarian state. Since it was partly a satire aimed against England and war propaganda, which journalist and writer Orwell (real name Eric Blair) was a part of, it has a deeper message, I think, about totalitarian-liberalism as well as fascist and communist dictatorship.

For example, the Orwellian government is called Ingsoc, a play on English Socialism. The protagonist is Winston Smith, an ordinary intellectual worker in Minitrue, the Ministry of Truth, whose job it is to make History always conform to the current Party line. What is true one day historically is not true the next day, if the Party changes policies.

In a larger sense, Thoughtcrimes are political crimes rather than purely statutory violations. In other words, the accused does not support the Party/Church line. He has the wrong thoughts and this is bad for public order and public morality, supposedly.

Today, in Germany and France, for example, it is against the law to doubt the Holocaust and the conclusions established by the Nuremberg War Crimes Tribunal (and all subsequent trials). And basically, the Holocaust is defined as whatever the Zionists say that it is. Anyone who differs in opinion is a "Denier" and can theoretically be prosecuted.
:roll: :roll:

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Auschwitz and 6 million

Post by weiwensg » 14 Apr 2002 01:15

Since the death toll at Auschwitz is now universally recognized to be 1 million instead of 4,000,000 why isn't the 6 million figure revised? Just wondering.

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Birgitte Heuschkel
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Re: Auschwitz and 6 million

Post by Birgitte Heuschkel » 14 Apr 2002 01:21

weiwensg wrote:Since the death toll at Auschwitz is now universally recognized to be 1 million instead of 4,000,000 why isn't the 6 million figure revised? Just wondering.
Some people don't want it changed. Some people want it to be higher. Some want it to be lower. Just take a look at some of the more heated discussions here...

Moreover, re-writing 50 years worth of history books just won't happen in a flick of an eye. Certainly, new publications may take things into account, but the six million is well established in the mind of the western world, except with history buffs like us.

Finally one might argue, and I certainly will, that it doesn't matter one hoot wether 5, 6, 7, or 8 million people died -- or if only 2, 3, or 4 million did. What does matter is how, and how to prevent such an atrocity from ever happening again somewhere else.

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Post by michael mills » 14 Apr 2002 05:46

Himmler's statistician, Richard Korherr, in the summary of his report prepared for Hitler, stated that between the beginning of National Socialist rule and the end of 1942, the Jewish population of Europe had been reduced by half. Half of that reduction had been due to emigration and flight. Although Korherr does not specifically say so, it is implied that the remaining half of the reduction is due to deaths.

Earlier in his report, Korherr stated that the Jewish population of Europe in 1933 had been 10 million. Accordingly, there had been a reduction of 5 million, of which 2.5 million had been due to emigration and flight (mainly into the interior of the Soviet Union). Therefore, as of the end of 1942 there been excess mortality of 2.5 million.

In late 1943, the World Jewish Congress estimated that three million Jews had died by September of that year, out of five million who had been displaced from their homes. That figure corresponds quite well with Korherr's, indicating that a further 500,000 had died since the end of 1942.

In 1944, the Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee of the Soviet Union estimated that four million Jews had died, including 1.5 million Soviet Jews.

If the above figures are correct, then it is unlikely that the canonical total of six million was reached by the end of the war. Reitlinger's total of between 4.2 and 4.6 million is most likely to be accurate.

The six-million figure most likely arose through confusion between the total displaced (5.7 million) and earlier predictions that six million WOULD be killed, that being the number under German control.

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Re: Auschwitz and 6 million

Post by mike262752 » 14 Apr 2002 06:59

Birgitte Heuschkel wrote:
weiwensg wrote:Since the death toll at Auschwitz is now universally recognized to be 1 million instead of 4,000,000 why isn't the 6 million figure revised? Just wondering.
Some people don't want it changed. Some people want it to be higher. Some want it to be lower. Just take a look at some of the more heated discussions here...

Moreover, re-writing 50 years worth of history books just won't happen in a flick of an eye. Certainly, new publications may take things into account, but the six million is well established in the mind of the western world, except with history buffs like us.

Finally one might argue, and I certainly will, that it doesn't matter one hoot wether 5, 6, 7, or 8 million people died -- or if only 2, 3, or 4 million did. What does matter is how, and how to prevent such an atrocity from ever happening again somewhere else.
It does matter wether it was 6,5,4,3, or whatever million.

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Post by kellysartin » 14 Apr 2002 08:30

does it matter how many non-germans in german uniform were shot for collaboration? what about all the Russian minorities who joined the Axis because Lenin and stalin had been exterminating them for 20 years? do their huge numbers matter? it seems to me like most of this thought is identical to Nazi thought, the suffering death of these people served ends we favor , therefore it is justified. oh yes, i agree , the numbers don't matter . and the extermination of the Kulaks , which your western nations did NOTHING about, can be laid squarely at your door , and you should suffer the exact same degree of punishment.

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Birgitte Heuschkel
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Post by Birgitte Heuschkel » 15 Apr 2002 06:22

kellysartin wrote:what about all the Russian minorities who joined the Axis because Lenin and stalin had been exterminating them for 20 years? do their huge numbers matter?
To me that just proves again, the exact numbers are less important to us, living 50 years later, than the reasons. I care less whether 1 or 2 million people died somewhere than I care why -- because I don't want it to happen again, to one person or to six million.

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mike262752
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Post by mike262752 » 15 Apr 2002 08:02

Birgitte Heuschkel wrote:
kellysartin wrote:what about all the Russian minorities who joined the Axis because Lenin and stalin had been exterminating them for 20 years? do their huge numbers matter?
To me that just proves again, the exact numbers are less important to us, living 50 years later, than the reasons. I care less whether 1 or 2 million people died somewhere than I care why -- because I don't want it to happen again, to one person or to six million.
The diffrence beetween 1 and 2 million people is a big diffrence, 1 million lives of a diffrence. I dont see how a "history buff" could not care about the numbers. Isnt it obvious why it happend?
This wont happen ag

And be realistic, what are you activley doing to prevent this from happening again?

ain, at the slightest glint of racism people go into a frenzy. Plus people today have something to look back at, to see what certain paths lead down. And theres no reason both couldnt be important to someone.

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Birgitte Heuschkel
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Post by Birgitte Heuschkel » 15 Apr 2002 08:13

mike262752 wrote:The diffrence beetween 1 and 2 million people is a big diffrence, 1 million lives of a diffrence. I dont see how a "history buff" could not care about the numbers. Isnt it obvious why it happend?
This wont happen ag
Oh, as a history buff I do care, but this is a purely academic interest. I also care what shade of feldgrau the specific divisions wore, and what the Leibstandarte officers thought of daily rations. On the humanitarian level, however, I feel that the issue is not how many died, but why.
And be realistic, what are you activley doing to prevent this from happening again?
Well, I am not involved in political work, if this is what you are asking. I do spend a fair amount of time discussing with people with more radical views, mostly on-line, trying to make them see my side of things as well as finding out theirs. I try not to make similar mistakes in my own life and not to judge based on generalisation, and generally be a good little member of humanity.
As a note, this is easier said than done. I have been assaulted several times and on one occasion attempted raped by members of, shall we say, more dark-skinned nations. It does take some effort to maintain the view that no, all Palestinians are not dangerous because this one couldn't keep his willy in his pants, and not all Sri Lankans will attempt to beat you up because they don't like your hair style; fear moves on a fairly primal level, unfortunately.
ain, at the slightest glint of racism people go into a frenzy. Plus people today have something to look back at, to see what certain paths lead down. And theres no reason both couldnt be important to someone.
I disapprove strongly of racism as in 'this guy's black, ergo he's a creep'. As should be evident from my statement above, however, I will recognize that there are issues with differences of culture and religion that can give a girl reason to avoid certain places in town and certain people, howevermuch she doesn't *want* to think of herself as a racist.

It is important that we remember, and that we strive to avoid repetition. Yet I will still maintain that spending energy preventing disasters from repeating is more important than haggling over exact numbers.

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Post by Tarpon27 » 15 Apr 2002 12:07

Since the death toll at Auschwitz is now universally recognized to be 1 million instead of 4,000,000 why isn't the 6 million figure revised? Just wondering.

Because for the TOTAL of Jews killed at ~6 million, the figure of 4 million at Auschwitz, put forth by the Russians, was not accepted by most historians, and not added to the 6 million total. The Russians calculated, supposedly, the number of victims Auschwitz could have killed, using krema capacities, etc. The Polish site, under USSR control post-war, used the number enforced by the Russians.

The death toll at Auschwitz was estimated at ~1 million, and this was used in the figure of 6 million.

Hilberg's calculation was 5.1 million, but did not calculate Jews killed in the German occupied territory of Russia. Nuremberg used a figure of ~6 million.

It is disingenuous for the changing of 4 million to one million to be used, or that 6 million figure never reflected the "loss" of 3 million non-victims at Auschwitz when the "official" numbers were revised, after the fall of the USSR.

The historical record has not embraced the 4 million dead.

Mark

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Roberto
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Post by Roberto » 15 Apr 2002 13:02

In late 1943, the World Jewish Congress estimated that three million Jews had died by September of that year, out of five million who had been displaced from their homes. That figure corresponds quite well with Korherr's, indicating that a further 500,000 had died since the end of 1942.
I would be interested to see the exact passage of the Korherr Report, long or short version, where the alleged statement is made. Korherr’s figures generally referred to the period until 31.12.1942, and even where they went further in time his figures cannot be compared with estimates made at the end of 1943 for the simple reason that Korherr’s report was made in the initial months of that year. The version that Himmler required to be corrected on account of the use of the inconvenient term “Sonderbehandlung” had obviously reached Himmler before 10.4.1943, the date on which Himmler’s request was transmitted to Korherr. The short version for Hitler had been transmitted by Korherr prior to 19.4.1943, according to Korherr’s letter to Brandt of that date. Transcriptions of both letters can be found under the link

http://www.ns-archiv.de/verfolgung/korh ... icht.shtml
If the above figures are correct, then it is unlikely that the canonical total of six million was reached by the end of the war. Reitlinger's total of between 4.2 and 4.6 million is most likely to be accurate.
The above contention contains two mistakes.

The first is that there is no such thing as a “canonical total of six million” – there are estimates by historians ranging from 4.2 – 4.6 million (Reitlinger) to over 6 million (Benz et al).

The second is that Reitlinger himself seems to have pointed out that owing to the lack of reliable information at the time of writing, some of his figures must be regarded as conjectural. This applies especially to the figure of 700,000 to 750,000 for Jews of the Soviet Union killed by the Nazis. Recent research by German historians has established that the losses of the Jewish population in the Soviet Union within the frontiers as of 22 June 1941 (i.e. including the eastern part of Poland occupied by the USSR) were about 2.8 million dead, thereof 2.1 million in the Soviet Union within the frontiers as of 1 September 1939.

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Post by Roberto » 15 Apr 2002 17:19

Since the death toll at Auschwitz is now universally recognized to be 1 million instead of 4,000,000 why isn't the 6 million figure revised? Just wondering.
Because it wasn’t based on the Soviets' overblown estimate of the Auschwitz-Birkenau death toll, which was never believed on this side of the Iron Curtain.

William Shirer, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, Simon and Schuster New York, 1960
Page 973
How many hapless innocent people - mostly Jews but including a fairly large number of others, especially Russian prisoners of war - were slaughtered at the one camp of Auschwitz? The exact number will never be known. Hoess himself in his affidavit gave an estimate of ‘2,500,000 victims executed and exterminated by gassing and burning, and at least another half million who succumbed to starvation and disease, making a total of about 3,000,000’. Later at his own trial in Warsaw he reduced the figure to 1,135,000. The Soviet government, which investigated the camp after it was overrun by the Red Army in January 1945, put the figure at four million. Reitlinger, on the basis of his own exhaustive study, doubts that the number gassed at Auschwitz was ‘even as high as three quarters of a million.’ He estimates that about 600,000 died in the gas chambers, to which he adds ‘the unknown proportion’ of some 300,000 of more ‘missing’, who were shot or died of starvation and disease. By any estimate the figure is considerable.
Emphasis is mine. The figure of 1,135,000 victims of the Auschwitz-Birkenau death camp, given by Höß at his Warsaw trial, is in line with most posterior estimates by historians:

- Dr Josef Kermisz, from the Jewish Historical Commission in Poland, wrote in 1949 that this Commission had evaluated the number of victims of Auschwitz at 1 500 000;

- Gerald Reitlinger in 1953 estimated at 800 000 to 900 000 the number of Jewish victims of Auschwitz;

- Raul Hilberg, in The Destruction of European Jews, 1961, estimated the number of Jewish victims of Auschwitz at 1 million and the total number of victims of Auschwitz at 1.1 million.

- Helmut Krausnick declared in 1964, at the process against former members of the Auschwitz staff in Frankfurt, that the total number of victims of Auschwitz was between on million and one and a half million;

- Georges Wellers in 1983 provided an estimate of 1.3 million Jewish victims at Auschwitz and a total of 1.5 million victims of the camp;

- Franciszek Piper, in a study that started in 1980 and the results of which were presented in 1991 and 1994, gave as the total number of victims of Auschwitz a minimum of 1.1 million and a maximum of 1.5 million.

The fact that Höß gave this figure in the depositions at his Warsaw trial and in his memoirs is one of the strongest indications against the allegation that either were in any way influenced by his captors. Would the Poles have tortured or otherwise influenced Höß into providing a figure that countered the one upheld by the Polish government at the time (and until 1990)? As John C. Zimmermann writes in his online article How Reliable are the Höss Memoirs:

“Höss was directly challenging the credibility of his captors. He simply could not have written this under duress. Rather, if he was being forced to write these memoirs the 4 million number would certainly have turned up. Also, this shows that his memoirs were not tampered with by the Polish or Soviet authorities. This could explain the reason - though the author has no information to this effect - the Höss memoirs were not released by the Poles until 1958, more than eleven years after they were written.”

Source of quote:

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... s-memoirs/

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