Something about W-SS war crimes

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Tolga Alkan
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Something about W-SS war crimes

Post by Tolga Alkan » 16 Jan 2003 15:30

My mind confused on thing that Max Hastings writes in his "Das Reich"
book,page number of 34:
"Within two weeks of the invasion of Russia,the SS Wiking Division
had killed 600 Galician jews'as a repsial for Soviet cruelties'.
The Leibstandarte Division found six of its men brutally killed by
Russian Troops and shot every prisoner for three days,a total of about
4000 men.In September 1941,a support unit of Das Reich assisted an SS
extermination squad to kill 900 jews near Minsk"

is it true fact?

Best Regards,
Tolga

tonyh
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Post by tonyh » 16 Jan 2003 16:59

Hastings is writing more provokatively than he should. The LAH found some of its men mutilated and Deitrich order that no prisoners should be taken for several days after the discovery. But I have yet too see conclusive evidence that it was anywhere near 4000 men.

This is far different than shooting POW's.

Tony

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Juha Hujanen
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Post by Juha Hujanen » 16 Jan 2003 18:34

About that Wiking shooting jews.In Mauno Jokipii's book:Panttipataljoona is a account of Finnish Wiking volunteer of that incident.He got orders to go houses and tell males to arrive town square for identification check.He then returned to their trucks and he heard gunshots.When he rushed to square he found that Einsatzgruppen men were shooting civilians.

I did send full account of that veteran to someone member of this forum in PM.Unfortunally i didn't save it.Mayby he can post it here?.

Cheers/Juha

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Post by Peter » 16 Jan 2003 20:19

An interesting question

It is a fact that SS units entering the former GPU prison at Taganrod on 28 March 1942 found the well contained mutilated human bodies, some civilian and some SS soldiers. The SS were identified as members of 3 Kompanie/LSSAH.

6 men had been tortured and killed (SS-Sturmann Gehrken, Lippke, Steiner and Schwillinsky and SS-Mann Mehnke and Ploetz). They had been made Prisoner of War on 12 Oct 1941.

After identification by SS-Hauptscharf Hueser and SS-Stabscharf Bruhn, Sergeant-Majors of 3 Kompanie, they were medically examined. Gehrken had had 4 fingers chopped off and is skull was smashed in, Lippke had been shot in the head, Schwillinsky’s head was smashed in, Steiners spine was smashed and his skull broken, Mehnke’s right hand had been chopped off and he had a shattered rib cage and had been shot in the head, Ploetz had had his spine smashed, left side of ribcage smashed in.


I do not condone the alledged massacres due to the anger of the LSSAH, if the allegation is correct, but I do understand it.

Pete

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Post by Peter » 16 Jan 2003 20:26

I forgot to say that the Wehrmacht had been angered by several instances where Red Army soldiers had surrendered and whilst accepting the surrender they had produced hidden weapons and attacked German soldiers.

The Leibstandarte had suffered several incidents - one example is 14 Aug 1941 near NowoDanzig when SS-OSF Olboeter sent his Sergeant Major (SS-Oscha Goike) and 2 men to accept surrendered Russian soldiers. All 3 were shot down and killed, 1 Zug/14 Komp/LSSAH.

Pete

Tolga Alkan
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Post by Tolga Alkan » 16 Jan 2003 23:11

tonyh wrote:Hastings is writing more provokatively than he should. The LAH found some of its men mutilated and Deitrich order that no prisoners should be taken for several days after the discovery. But I have yet too see conclusive evidence that it was anywhere near 4000 men.

This is far different than shooting POW's.

Tony


I also feel some of single-perspective on his writings and number of 4000 is i think unreal.

Tolga

Tolga Alkan
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Post by Tolga Alkan » 16 Jan 2003 23:18

Juha Hujanen and Iltis,
thank you very much for your additional informations.

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Juha Hujanen
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Post by Juha Hujanen » 17 Jan 2003 19:46

Some more about that LSSAH and 4000 pow killed.In Charles Messenger's excelent Sepp Dietrich:Hitler's Gladiator is some interesting info about that incident.
The story of "no prisoners" started from Erich Kern book Der Grosse Rausch(Dance of Death was English title".Book was published 1948.He served in 4th Battalion in LSSAH.He tels how 6 members of LSSAH were found mutilated.He says that an order was received by Division that all prisoners captured during the last 3 days were to be shot(they also found 103 Heer soldiers massacred).He continued that 4000 pows were shot.

Gerald Reitlinger took that story to his 1956 published SS:Alibi of a Nation 1922-1945 book and said that Dietrich gave the order to shoot pows.George Stein used that same story as many others authors.There is 7 months time cap regarding Dietrich order between Reitlinger and Stein and original Kern writings are not accurately followed(in Kern book dates are rather inaccurate).
Heinz Hohne in The Order of the Deaths's Head don't mention reprisals when bodies were found.He tells abot letter from Keilhaus,who was in LSSAH HQ,that Dietrich did't allowed pows to be shot.

So story started from Kern's book and there's no other evidence to "no prisoners" order.Shootings may had happened but that's not "proven case" like Oradour-Sur-Glane.

Just my 2 cents

Juha

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Post by David Thompson » 17 Jan 2003 20:31

Juha -- When you said, "So story started from Kern's book and there's no other evidence to "no prisoners" order," were you talking about this particular SS-LAH incident, or making a broader generalization?

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Juha Hujanen
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Post by Juha Hujanen » 18 Jan 2003 12:53

David i was talking about that particular incident.There was shooting of pows by LSSAH like Wormhound and Malmedy and these cases are well documented.
I'm just saying that there is little evidence of "no prisoners" order that Kern is refering to.Of course if that order would have been given it propably would't be written one but verbal.And there would be no eyewittnes in Russian side for obvious reasons.

regards/Juha

Tolga Alkan
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Post by Tolga Alkan » 19 Jan 2003 18:13

Again,
i thank you who did share their informations about topic.My mind is getting clear.

Tolga

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