Will Fey and the 14 Shermans he claims for 7/8/44

[Michael Kenny]

On the 9th, one Zug from 12 SS Pz.Div's 3rd Panther Komp. (CO von Ribbentrop) that claimed 5 tanks shot,

You forget to mention the 2 Panther knocked out when they engaged the 5 Shermans.
We know for sure the Panthers were hit because 12th SS mention them. The 5 Shermans are unconfirmed claims.

No Panthers, no Tigers were Ko'd that day.

Szamveber, page 127. August 9th mentions 1 Panther 'damaged' by a hit from an AFV and 1 Panther being knocked out by an at gun' with 4 wounded crew.

[Miles Krogfus]

The tank losses of the 28 CAR cannot be dismissed as a Panzer Fan Fantasia . . .

[Michael Kenny]

First Szamveber is not reliable, but now is ?

Szamveber is reliable when quoting from German documents about German losses/casualties.
Szamveber is unreliable when given German estimates of Allied losses. It is that simple.

I relate to tank unit documents, and to quote Michael, men who were there. I knew the vets of the three Panzer Zugs involved that day.

You are not the final authority on these things. Your information was obtained decades ago and much has since (like your suggestion to Fey about 23rd Hussars losing 15 tanks) been shown to be in error.
The posts I did on Worthington could not have been written by anyone without extensive research a decade ago. I put it together in under an hour. So much new information has surfaced and archives have gone online since then that you simply can not sit back and claim personal contact with a German veteran some 20+years back makes you the sole arbiter of 'the truth'.
Szamveber gives information about 2 knocked out Panthers on August 9th. How was he led astray?
By the way do you have a copy of the book?

Hpool Portrait295.jpg

[Michael Kenny]

Also, there were no "Totalausfalle" 101 SS Tigers and 12 SS Panthers on the 9th..

Now you resort to sematics. I said what I said not what you are now suggesting I said.
Also editing your original post of 7:37 after my post of 8:12 so as to change its meaning is a bit underhand.



Top is original post at 7:37.
Middle is my reply at 8:12.
Bottom is your edit at 8:22 to try and cover up your error.

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[Michael Kenny]

. 3 CDN Inf Div put in attacks on area Quesnay, but were repulsed, suffering heavy casualties.

If you want to know how a Unit performed consult its War Dairy rather than a passing mention in another Units Diary.

3rd Canadian Infantry DIvision.

8th Canadian In Brigade Aug 10 1944

8th Cnd In Brgde.jpg

North Shore (New Brunswick) Regiment Aug 10 1944

QOR Aug 10 (1).jpg

QOR Aug 10 (2).jpg

The Queen’s Own Rifles of Canada Aug 10 1944

NSR 10 Aug 1944.jpg

[Miles Krogfus]

High losses indeed . . .

[pintere]

BTW, did my information on Eckstein meet your criteria for a double-digit kill score in one day?

Even if not, there is always Hurdelbrink, who knocked out 11 tanks the previous day. That day when the Polish AD lost 30+ tanks.

[Michael Kenny]

BTW, did my information on Eckstein meet your criteria for a double-digit kill score in one day?

Even if not, there is always Hurdelbrink, who knocked out 11 tanks the previous day. That day when the Polish AD lost 30+ tanks.

No.
I want an example where the battlefield did not consist of several tank units/Infantry Divisions firing at the same targets. For example checking Szamveber for info on Worthington Force reveals he takes his 'kill total' from the Canadian War Diary and not from the individual claims lists at the back of the book. He simply takes the Diary total of the whole Regiments losses for the entire day:

Worthington Force 28 CAR (BC Rgt) Aug 9 1944 (1403).yui.jpg

and works backwards from it. I check all Szamveber's footnotes which is difficult because every Reynolds citation seems to have the same page number.

If you read up on Worthington Force you will find that it had 33 tanks of which 8 'broke out' and got back to Canadian lines. 25 wrecks at most in that location. 9 Half-tracks also made it out and home. The group held the ground from 05:30 until 20:00 (14 hours) beating off several German attacks until they ran out of ammunition.

[pintere]

BTW, did my information on Eckstein meet your criteria for a double-digit kill score in one day?

Even if not, there is always Hurdelbrink, who knocked out 11 tanks the previous day. That day when the Polish AD lost 30+ tanks.

No.
I want an example where the battlefield did not consist of several tank units/Infantry Divisions firing at the same targets.

You know it's not very common where a whole allied tank unit will line up in a confined space and take on one German panzer whilst every other German unit ceases fire and enjoys the spectacle. Both sides fought in groups, and it was a rare event for a Panzer battalion to take on an equivalent sized allied unit without supporting formations.

If you're wanting a scenario as described above, you won't find many, to say nothing of one where a German commander succeeds in destroying 10+ tanks. It seems your only reason for dismissal of Eckstein/Hurdelbrink is that since there were other German units in the area verifying their individual kill scores is impossible. The way I see it is that their scores are perfectly reasonable in light of the heavy allied armour losses that day, and the only way one can reasonably cast doubt on their kill counts is if the collective kill count of all German units in the area is significantly higher than combined allied losses.

Which I do not think is the case.

[Miles Krogfus]

Here is data quoted from the "13 August Operational Report of the CO Ist Polish Armoured Division" and info from Polish crewmen. August 8: 10th Arm. Cavalry Brigade from 1335 moved out, 1425 its 2nd Tank Rgt. attacked area 108556. 1st Squadron's Sgt. Pawlowicz's tank burst into flames, explosions all around. Sgt. Major Parol's tank Ko'd. 2nd Lt. Kohutnicki jumped from his burning tank. The 2nd Squadron arrived: its entire first line quickly destroyed . . . Of the 36 tanks of these two squadrons, 26 wiped out. Then the 24th Lancers appeared . . . August 9: 0700 the 10th Arm. Cav. shifted to the area north of Cramesil. Its 1st Tank Rgt. took height 84 circa 1600. The 24th Lancers took the area NW boundary La Croix at 1149. Polish losses for these days: 121 killed, 36 MIA, 499 wounded. Totally lost 66 tanks, 7 SP's, 5 Six Pounder AT guns. Already in another post, I have quoted Capt. Mieczkowski about these difficult days. As regards the total losses of Worthington's Canadian 28th's group: 47 total armor losses left behind, while 8 other tanks with still functioning engines finally escaped 12 SS and 101 SS attacks.

[Michael Kenny]

Here is data from the 13 August Operational Report of the CO Ist Polish Armoured Division and info from Polish crewmen. August 8: 10th Arm. Cavalry Brigade from 1335 moved out, 1425 its 2nd Tank Rgt. attacked area 108556 (see map 1:50000 Caen Falaise, sheets 7F/2, 7F/6)..

Bad start.
108 556 is not on Map 7F/2 (Troarn) nor is it on 7F/6 (Falaise). It s on 7F/4 (St Pierre Sur Dives) and the relevant section of 7F/4 is shown below.

7F-4 St Pierre Sur Dives..b.........jpg

7F-4 St Pierre Sur Dives..........VB.jpg

See map square 10 (top line) & square 55 (side line) and it is the area NW of St Sylvain.

Given this error can you tell me what 'report' you are quoting. Do you have the original or is it that you are quoting others who write that 'reports say Polish AD lost x, y and z tanks..

Clearly you have access to first hand information because the codes 7F/2 & 7F/6 are correct it just is not those maps for the map reference you gave. This tells me you are simply copying something (book page or footnote?) but have not/can not check it out nor are you aware that Map 7F/2 is an area well to the rear at this time of that 7F/6 is Falaise and in still in German hands.

A link to the source or a scan of the orignal please.

[Miles Krogfus]

Major General Stanislaw Maczek's original report begins
"13 August 1944,
Operational Report
Commanding Officer,
1st Polish Armoured Division

Fighting During the Period from 7-12 August 1944
MAP REF: 1:50,000 Caen Falaise
Sheets 7F/2 and 7F/6."

[Michael Kenny]

The problem seems to be your peek-a-boo way of posting snippets of information and 'adding' to the original. Does the original say:

'2nd Tank Rgt. attacked area 108556 (see map 1:50000 Caen Falaise, sheets 7F/2, 7F/6)'

And if it does not why did you feel the need to suggest it does? Without question the above as written makes no sense at all.
Perhaps you took a sentence from the original and because of imperfect understanding assumed an earlier reference to Maps 7F/2 & 7F/6 meant that was the map(s) for the reference so you 'added' them to the mix to make your post look more detailed?

You will need to show that you are not altering anything else.
Is there a problem with posting the original?

[Sean Oliver]

Do the British archives have anything from Ordnance/QM /Transport/logistics units which were responsible for repairing or moving damaged/wrecked tanks? These would presumably contain better data concerning tank losses than unit war diaries, which are notoriously vague on such details.
F.e., among the NARA Wehrmacht docs I've glanced at, the most detailed info on panzer losses are sometimes found among QM /Pioniere/Ordnance/Transport records, rather than with the unit Ia's KTB and Anlagen. Some of these I've seen have each AFV loss during the indicated period recorded on its own page or two, with vehicle commander's name, unit/company, vehicle ID number, chassis serial number, time + date of loss, detailed cause of loss, and precise location of wreck including 1:10000 sketch maps with an 'X' to mark the spot. These were probably used by recovery teams, or were simply a requirement of military regulations.
Anything like this for Commonwealth units in Normandy?
And what about those OR teams roaming around Normandy doing battlefield forensics? Didn't they put a lot of effort into the Bluecoat battlefield? IIRC it was the first operation they really tried to examine in detail. Of course, they might've been more interested in enemy wrecks than friendly ones. They must have some reports.

[Sheldrake]

Do the British archives have anything from Ordnance/QM /Transport/logistics units which were responsible for repairing or moving damaged/wrecked tanks? These would presumably contain better data concerning tank losses than unit war diaries, which are notoriously vague on such details.
F.e., among the NARA Wehrmacht docs I've glanced at, the most detailed info on panzer losses are sometimes found among QM /Pioniere/Ordnance/Transport records, rather than with the unit Ia's KTB and Anlagen. Some of these I've seen have each AFV loss during the indicated period recorded on its own page or two, with vehicle commander's name, unit/company, vehicle ID number, chassis serial number, time + date of loss, detailed cause of loss, and precise location of wreck including 1:10000 sketch maps with an 'X' to mark the spot. These were probably used by recovery teams, or were simply a requirement of military regulations.
Anything like this for Commonwealth units in Normandy?
And what about those OR teams roaming around Normandy doing battlefield forensics? Didn't they put a lot of effort into the Bluecoat battlefield? IIRC it was the first operation they really tried to examine in detail. Of course, they might've been more interested in enemy wrecks than friendly ones. They must have some reports.

I am not sure exactly what British records exist for repair and recovery at the level of detail that you would like. The British bureaucracy wasn't quite as anal as the German and often took a philistine approach to the interests of posterity and chucked material away. By the end of the campaign in NWE vehicle repair and maintenance data was held on punched cards which speeded up reporting.