WW2 British guilt - Bleiburg massacre

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Dalma4
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WW2 British guilt - Bleiburg massacre

Post by Dalma4 » 19 Apr 2009 14:06

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHN-AaBqDj0

Does british people know anything about this tragic events?

Rob - wssob2
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Bleiburg happens; NDH leaders escape

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 19 Apr 2009 15:48

Dalma4, There are more than a dozen threads about the Bleiburg massacres already on the forum:


Allied War Crime Bleiburg
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=9006

Bleiburg
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=108560

German, Croat troops massacerd by the thousands.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=13499

Bleiburg massacre over Croats
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=118870

15th May 1945 - Bleiburg
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=50001


You drive-by post of a YouTube link seems to me just an act of agitprop.

No I absolutely do not think the UK government should "apologize" for Bleiburg. I have found such demands seemingly common from Croatian exteme nationalists and pro-Nazis postitions.


AHF Member Allen Milcic wrote in the last post above:
The NDH is not something the Croatian people should be proud of, it was a puppet state run by morally corrupt leaders, and some of its actions are a permanent stain on Croatia's soul...Bleiburg was certainly a tragedy, and researching this matter is of definite importance. I wonder what your theory as to why the NDH leadership sent the Croatian Armed Forces towards Austria, but disappeared themselves in a different direction - in effect saving their skins while sending the army to its demise?
I suggest that we flip this disucssion around and rather than talk about British guilt, let's talk about how the senior NDH leadership managed to save their skins (many with the aid of the Catholic Church) while thousands of their rank and file were executed and imprisioned.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ante_Paveli%C4%87

Dalma4
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Re: WW2 British guilt - Bleiburg massacre

Post by Dalma4 » 19 Apr 2009 16:05

In this topic I dont defend NDH political leadership.

By extradicting all those people, british army violated rule of geneva convenction. Those people were political refugees.

But, if this is missed a topic, admin can delete it.

Rob - wssob2
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Re: WW2 British guilt - Bleiburg massacre

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 19 Apr 2009 16:14

By extradicting all those people, british army violated rule of geneva convenction.
Please cite EXACT section of the SPECIFIC Geneva convention that was violated. Do you know?

You may want to do some research on the Yalta Agreement as well.

Those people were political refugees.
Perhaps. Many thousands were rank and file NDH and Wehrmacht/SS troops.

What do you think about the senior NDH leadership managing to get away?

Dalma4
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Re: WW2 British guilt - Bleiburg massacre

Post by Dalma4 » 19 Apr 2009 17:39

Please cite EXACT section of the SPECIFIC Geneva convention that was violated. Do you know?
I was trying to find it in last few days, but I couldnt. I saw it few years ago in one book about Bleiburg. If I find it, I will post it.

What do you think about the senior NDH leadership managing to get away?
I dont think anything about them.

What should they do? They couldnt expect fair trial on communist court.

If NDH goverment didnt escape, would it change something? Would it save my relatives on Bleiburg field?

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TISO
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Re: WW2 British guilt - Bleiburg massacre

Post by TISO » 19 Apr 2009 21:14

NDH troops did not surrender to british army but formally surrenderd to yugoslav partisan units. British just pressured them to surrender to partisans on the line: " we don't accept your surrender, here you have partisans if you don't surrender to them we will open fire". Situation is different from slovene domobrans, some chetnik units and XV. cossack corps who did formally surrender to british and were later returned to the yugoslavia and SSSR.
What should they do? They couldnt expect fair trial on communist court.
Perhaps not start vicious extermination campaign agains non croats in 1941? Tito himself admitted once that without NDH genocidal policies partisans would never be a viable force in yugoslavia.
If NDH goverment didnt escape, would it change something? Would it save my relatives on Bleiburg field?
Unfortunatly no.

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Re: WW2 British guilt - Bleiburg massacre

Post by redcoat » 20 Apr 2009 22:52

Dalma4 wrote:In this topic I dont defend NDH political leadership.

By extradicting all those people, british army violated rule of Geneva convention. Those people were political refugees.

.
They weren't political refugees, they were prisoners of war, and the Geneva convention states that POW's should be returned to their country of origin as soon as possible after hostilities have ended.
The fact that they were now considered to be traitors by the government of the country of origin is irrelevant to the treaty

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Re: WW2 British guilt - Bleiburg massacre

Post by Dalma4 » 21 Apr 2009 11:27

My English is too bad for proving every fact i say, so I cant discus equal.

Even if extradiction from Bleiburg field is not a crime, what can you say about extradiction of thousants refugees from Austria after Bleiburg. It was well known that many from Bleiburg field were massacred, so why did britains send more refugees to partisans? Is that a crime?

Dalma4
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Re: WW2 British guilt - Bleiburg massacre

Post by Dalma4 » 21 Apr 2009 11:53

redcoat wrote:They weren't political refugees, they were prisoners of war, and the Geneva convention states that POW's should be returned to their country of origin as soon as possible after hostilities have ended.
And what about the civilians, were they POWs too? After extradiction, partisans systematically killed wifes and daughters of higher ustasha officials and officers.

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Re: WW2 British guilt - Bleiburg massacre

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 21 Apr 2009 12:48

redcoat wrote: They weren't political refugees, they were prisoners of war
There were both Croatian civilians and NDH military personnel attempting to cross into British lines in Austria.
redcoat wrote:and the Geneva convention states that POW's should be returned to their country of origin as soon as possible after hostilities have ended.
I believe it's the 1907 Hague Convention, actually - Article 20, After the conclusion of peace, the repatriation of prisoners of war shall be carried out as quickly as possible.

see http://net.lib.byu.edu/~rdh7/wwi/hague/hague5.html
The fact that they were now considered to be traitors by the government of the country of origin is irrelevant to the treaty
Per the Yalta Agreement, civilians under the Soviet sphere of influence were to be handed over to Soviet forces. In turn, the Soviets would hand over Allied (specifically American) civilians to the US. See greement Relating to Prisoners of War and Civilians Liberated by Forces Operating Under Soviet Command and Forces Operating Under United States of America Command; February 11, 1945 at http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/sov007.asp

The UK version of the agreement, which states in part

"...A comprehensive agreement was reached at the Crimea conference providing detailed arrangements for the protection, maintenance and repatriation of prisoners of war and civilians of the British Commonwealth, Soviet Union and United States liberated by the Allied forces now invading Germany.

Under these arrangements each Ally will provide food, clothing, medical attention and other needs for the nationals of the others until transport is available for their repatriation. In caring for British subjects and American citizens, the Soviet Government will be assisted by British and American officers. Soviet officers will assist British and American authorities in their task of caring for Soviet citizens liberated by the British and American forces during such time as they are on the Continent of Europe or in the United Kingdom, awaiting transport to take them home.
"

Is available at http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/policy/1945/450212b.html

I believe the Yalta agreement also stipulated that the Yugoslav partisans were the official government of Yugoslavia.
TISO wrote:NDH troops did not surrender to british army but formally surrenderd to yugoslav partisan units. British just pressured them to surrender to partisans on the line: " we don't accept your surrender, here you have partisans if you don't surrender to them we will open fire".
That is correct. Remember that the western Allies, eager to get their own POW and civilian internee nationals back, were under orders to abide by the Yalta Agreement. And from the get-go, when British and American forces encountered Yugoslav Partisan forces in Istria and Slovenia, relations were rocky. It was very much the beginning of the Cold War. The British and the Partisans almost came to combat over Trieste.

It is astonding though, that the NDH "bigwigs" like Ivo Herenčić (CO, Fifth Ustaše Corps) and the Poglavnik himself managed to escape repatriation. Has anyone ever claimed that the senior Ustaše leadership "cut a deal" with either the British or the Partisans?

Milovan Djilas' book Wartime has some brief information about the Yugoslav reprisals in May 1945:
"... It was in Montenegro that I welcomed the end of our own fighting: on May 15, 1945, the German forces - estimated at 130,000 - finally reconized us as a legal Allied army and laid down their arms. There were individual cases of retribution in the course of the disarming. The captured Germasn were sent to camps and put to work. Along with the Germans, our enemies who collaborated with the invaders or bound their destiny to the fascist powers - the Chetniks, the Ustashi, Home Guards, and the Slovenian Home Guards - also laid down their arms. Some of these groups go throught to the British in Austria, who turned them over to us. All were killed, except for women and young people who were under eighteen years of age - so we were told at the time in Montenegro, and so I later heard from those who had taken part in these senseless acts of wrathful retribution.

These killings were sheer frenzy. How many victims were there? I believe that no one knows exactly, or will ever know. According to what I heard in passing from a few officials involved in the settling of scores, the number exceeds twenty thousand - though it must certainly be under thirty thousand, including all three of the groups just cited. They were killed separately, each group on the territory where they had been taken prisoner. A year or two later, there was grumbling in the Slovenian Central Committee that they had trouble with the peasants from those areas, because underground rivers were casting up bodies. They also said that piles of corpses were heaving up as they rotted in shallow mass graves, so that the very earth seemed to breathe...Serbian and Croatian nationalists each echo the other in claiming that their own side was treated more harshly than the other side. The same men, the same aims, the same means - they had to operate more or less in the same way everywhere."
Dalma4, you mentioned:
If NDH goverment didnt escape, would it change something? Would it save my relatives on Bleiburg field?
It's just sad how sometimes the guilty bigwigs escape and the rank and file pay the ultimate price. I'm sorry about your relatives.

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Re: WW2 British guilt - Bleiburg massacre

Post by Dalma4 » 21 Apr 2009 13:17

It's just sad how sometimes the guilty bigwigs escape and the rank and file pay the ultimate price. I'm sorry about your relatives.
Many political ustasha leaders managed to escape, but almost all army comanders and high officers were killed by partisans. I am sorry of them because many of them were WW1 heroes and honorable old veterans.

All ustasha soldiers were killed. Ustashas survived only if they changed ustasha uniform before or if they were 17 or younger.

Partisans also kiled most of domobran officers and tens of thousands of ordinary domobran soldiers. Stronger domobrans and domobrans with longer hair were considered ustashas wich changed uniform (only ustashas could have longer hair)

Civilian relatives of high oficials were killed systematycally. Many other civilians were also killed, but not in such mass numbers (my great-grand mother was stabbed).


All my relatives were ustashas (not domobrans, only ustashas) and they all disappeared after surrender near Bleiburg.

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Re: WW2 British guilt - Bleiburg massacre

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 22 Apr 2009 18:18

almost all army comanders and high officers were killed by partisans.
almost all?
not in such mass numbers (my great-grand mother was stabbed).
Can you tell us more about the specific circumstances? We're so used to talking about victims as mere statisical numbers on this forum that it would be good for us to hear some individual accounts from Blieburg as well.
and they all disappeared after surrender near Bleiburg.
If they all disappeared, how do you know what happened to them? Did any relatives survive?

Dalma4
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Re: WW2 British guilt - Bleiburg massacre

Post by Dalma4 » 22 Apr 2009 20:58

almost all?
Yes, almost all. Of 130 highest ranked NDH officers less than 30 survived. Few of them were spared, and other survivors managed to escape.
Can you tell us more about the specific circumstances? We're so used to talking about victims as mere statisical numbers on this forum that it would be good for us to hear some individual accounts from Blieburg as well.
Ok, few individual storys.

I heard a story that my great-grand mother was thirsty, she left prisoner column and lay down to drink from a river. When partisan guard saw it, he stabbed her in the back by bayonette.

One old survivor told me, partisans told them during the marches "If you are exhausted and cant walk any more, just sit down and wait for the red cross truck."
Some exhausted prisoners did it, but when column passed away, guards shot them. There was no red cross truck.

He also told me partisans blandished children to shoot in columns of prisoners. "In spring 1945, prisoner killing was normal thing. Everyone who wanted it, could do it"

f they all disappeared, how do you know what happened to them? Did any relatives survive?
5 of my relatives 1945 left towards Austria. We never heard of them again. It is obviously what happened.

99% familes of victims dont know the fate and burial place of victims. Mass graves are not explored yet.

one my relative was killed before withdrawal, he was shot and thrown in a pitt.

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Re: WW2 British guilt - Bleiburg massacre

Post by vszulc » 22 Apr 2009 21:41

There is absolutely no "British guilt" here.

The British forces merely did what was demanded of them according to the Geneva convention and the Yalta-agreement.

Why do you suppose the Ustasas were trying to get to Austria? Political differences with Tito's partisans? Nope. Like rats trying to get off a sinking ship, they knew exactly what was coming, and what kind of crimes against humanity they were guilty of.
If they didn't like it surrendering to the partisans, well, maybe they shouldn't have started a murderous campaign that killed 300.000 Serbs, Jews and Romas, and which left even German soldiers horrified at the atrocities.

At least Titos partisans treated them better, than they themselves had treated Serbs. Ustasa members under 18 weren't executed, no such mercy could be found among the Ustasas when they were in power.

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Re: WW2 British guilt - Bleiburg massacre

Post by Dalma4 » 22 Apr 2009 23:19

Why do you suppose the Ustasas were trying to get to Austria? Political differences with Tito's partisans? Nope.
Yes. All other Tito´s oponents were destroyed too. Even if ustashas didnt made genocide, Bleiburg massacre would happen.
Like rats trying to get off a sinking ship, they knew exactly what was coming, and what kind of crimes against humanity they were guilty of.
So what, if 1/4 ustashas made crimes, they all should be killed? And what about ordinary, recrouted domobran soldiers? Are they war criminals too?
And even if they all were criminals, every criminal has right on fair trial.

Ustasa members under 18 weren't executed
My gradndfather´s brother had 17. Few children sculls were founded in Jazovka pit. Whole groups of ustasha youth were massacred on Kočevski Rog.


You say Bleiburg massacre was fair revenge? I dont understand you people.

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