Soviet aircraft crash-landings in Estonia during Winter War

Discussions on the Winter War and Continuation War, the wars between Finland and the USSR.
Hosted by Juha Tompuri
andrus
Member
Posts: 95
Joined: 22 Aug 2005 12:28
Location: Estonia

Soviet aircraft crash-landings in Estonia during Winter War

Post by andrus » 19 Apr 2009 23:18

Splitted from here http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 7&start=90
/Juha

intelligence (Soviet losses in Estonia were reported to Finland counting the plane wrecks around the airfields)
There was article, in year 1991 about activity of soviet airforce from estonia during winter war:
Evald Laasi: N.Liidu Eestis asuva lennuväe tegevusest Talvesõjas. Looming 8/1991.

There, based on estonian police papers (ERA.1.7.157) number of forced landings/crashes in Estonia is given as:

Code: Select all

19.12.39 - 01.01.40  9  2  5  -
02.01.40 - 15.01.40  4  9  3  3
16.01.40 - 29.01.40  9  5  3  4
30.01.40 - 12.02.40  2  -  -  -
13.02.40 - 26.02.40  9 22  4  5
27.02.40 - 11.03.40  8  3  4  - 
1st column: time period, 2nd: forced-landed bombers, 3rd: forced-landed fighters, 4th: destroyed during landing bombers, 5th: destroyed during landing fighters (4. and 5. are already included in 2. and 3.).

and also some accidents are listed (in italic – my cross-checking naval units with Petrov/Tirkeltaub):

21.12.1939 15:00 SU bomber made forced landing in Lilienbach (east side of Narva). One of four members had light head wound.

Petrov: 1 DB-3 (1.mtap) near Rakvere – but it's much more to the west.

27.12.1939 one plane made forced landing in Ridala district (south of Haapsalu) in Sinalepa airbase. Plane was totally destroyed, 3 crew members died.

Petrov: 25.12.1939 1 SB (10.ab) 45 km to south from Haapsalu near Vigalo (Vigala?) . Plane destroyed, crew unhurt.
Vigala is much more to the east (but ca 45 km from Haapsalu). Even considering possible typo in date, probably not same planes.

01.01.1940 one plane fell down in western Estonia (Piirsalu district, forest Seljaküla). 3 crew members died.

12.01.1940 15:30 3 soviet fighters landed ca 20 km to the west from Narva. One has hits in 4 places, another had 2 hits and 3rd had no hits. Reason for landing: out of fuel and loss of orientation.

Tirkeltaub: 3 I-16 (5.ap)

15.01.1940 one soviet plane fell down in northern Estonia near Kohila. Plane was total loss, 2 crew members killed and 1 wounded.

16.01.1940 14:25 1-engine single-seated biplane landed in western Estonia (Riguldi district, Spitham village). Plane turned over.

Tirkeltaub: near Osmussaar during forced landing 1 I-15 destroyed.

29.01.1940 12:30 fighter with number 13 fell down near Valaste village in NE Estonia. Skis and wings were destroyed. Pilot unwounded.

Petrov: I-15 from 13.iap made forced landing in Estonia. Pilot P.D.Lobanov. Plane burned by pilot, pilot unhurt.

29.01.1940 17:40 plane from Kuusiku airbase fell down during forced landing in Albu district Saare village (central Estonia). Plane destroyed, crew members survived.

29.01.1940 soviet fighter fell down near lake Klooga. Pilot killed.

13.02.1940 around three o'clock afternoon monoplane fighter with number 35 was destroyed 1,5 km from Pedassaare cape during forced landing on ice.

14.02.1940 in Laoküla airbase one damaged plane fell down and was destroyed.

17.02.1940 near Laoküla airbase fell down 2-engine bomber.

17.02.1940 near Madise church fell down another 2-engine bomber.

01.03.1940 near Osmussaare (59º30' N 23º15'O) fell down soviet plane. No persons hurt.

04.03.1940 one soviet plane destroyed 0,5 km north of Vergi on ice of Finnish Bay.

04.03.1940 fell down near Vergi village 11 km from coast bomber. Plane burned, crew found dead.

Petrov: 1 DB-3 (10.ab) 15 km to the north of coast.

11.03.1940 16:30 in Sinalepa airbase fell down 2-motor bomber.

User avatar
Slon-76
Member
Posts: 493
Joined: 02 Sep 2008 16:56
Location: Moscow

Re: crash-landings in Estonia

Post by Slon-76 » 19 Apr 2009 23:30

andrus wrote:
intelligence (Soviet losses in Estonia were reported to Finland counting the plane wrecks around the airfields)
There was article, in year 1991 about activity of soviet airforce from estonia during winter war:
Evald Laasi: N.Liidu Eestis asuva lennuväe tegevusest Talvesõjas. Looming 8/1991.

Many thanks! I need to study a little it, I shall try to answer tomorrow.

User avatar
Juha Tompuri
Forum Staff
Posts: 11531
Joined: 11 Sep 2002 20:02
Location: Mylsä

Re: Soviet aircraft crash-landings in Estonia during Winter War

Post by Juha Tompuri » 20 Apr 2009 05:57

Thank you andrus.

Regards, Juha

User avatar
Harri
Member
Posts: 4229
Joined: 24 Jun 2002 11:46
Location: Suomi - Finland

Re: Soviet aircraft crash-landings in Estonia during Winter War

Post by Harri » 20 Apr 2009 13:14

Interesting information Andrus. It shows that the actual Soviet losses were much larger because these are in most cases "forgot" in official Soviet figures. Although many of these planes were perhaps moved away and repaired later (or used a source of spare parts) we can see the great number of fighters here.

Despite of Soviet existence in the Baltic States in already in late 1939 - 1940 they could not prevent Estonian intelligence from co-operating with the Finnish intelligence. There was even a direct telecommunications cable from Estonia to Finland which Soviets found and cut later. During the Continuation War Estonian key intelligence personnel worked in Finland (and after the war for Western intelligencies.) They were Russian speakers and were highly important members of the Finnish intelligence.

User avatar
Slon-76
Member
Posts: 493
Joined: 02 Sep 2008 16:56
Location: Moscow

Re: Soviet aircraft crash-landings in Estonia during Winter War

Post by Slon-76 » 20 Apr 2009 18:05

andrus wrote:Splitted from here http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 7&start=90
/Juha

intelligence (Soviet losses in Estonia were reported to Finland counting the plane wrecks around the airfields)
There was article, in year 1991 about activity of soviet airforce from estonia during winter war:
Evald Laasi: N.Liidu Eestis asuva lennuväe tegevusest Talvesõjas. Looming 8/1991.

There, based on estonian police papers (ERA.1.7.157) number of forced landings/crashes in Estonia is given as:

Code: Select all

19.12.39 - 01.01.40  9  2  5  -
02.01.40 - 15.01.40  4  9  3  3
16.01.40 - 29.01.40  9  5  3  4
30.01.40 - 12.02.40  2  -  -  -
13.02.40 - 26.02.40  9 22  4  5
27.02.40 - 11.03.40  8  3  4  - 
1st column: time period, 2nd: forced-landed bombers, 3rd: forced-landed fighters, 4th: destroyed during landing bombers, 5th: destroyed during landing fighters (4. and 5. are already included in 2. and 3.).
Once again thanks. I shall try to comment the text. The summary data while as a whole look correlated with the Soviet data. Except for 22 fighters which were sat down in Estonia for the period from February, 13 till February, 26. It not a typing error?
andrus wrote:21.12.1939 15:00 SU bomber made forced landing in Lilienbach (east side of Narva). One of four members had light head wound.
Petrov: 1 DB-3 (1.mtap) near Rakvere – but it's much more to the west.
Strange divergence. To all attributes it is crew of captain Bondarenko from 1 mtap.
andrus wrote:27.12.1939 one plane made forced landing in Ridala district (south of Haapsalu) in Sinalepa airbase. Plane was totally destroyed, 3 crew members died.

Petrov: 25.12.1939 1 SB (10.ab) 45 km to south from Haapsalu near Vigalo (Vigala?) . Plane destroyed, crew unhurt.
Vigala is much more to the east (but ca 45 km from Haapsalu). Even considering possible typo in date, probably not same planes.
Probably it is Tsetelman's crew from 35 SBAP. 27.02.40, аfter a strike to Lahti SB has lagged behind group and is compelled has landed in Estonia. Where - I do not know. However, on the Soviet data the crew has escaped, and the plane only has been damaged.

andrus wrote:01.01.1940 one plane fell down in western Estonia (Piirsalu district, forest Seljaküla). 3 crew members died.
It is unequivocal SB lieutenant Poljakov's from 35 SBAP. After impact across Turku has not returned on the air station. It is found on January, 3 in area Risti.
andrus wrote:12.01.1940 15:30 3 soviet fighters landed ca 20 km to the west from Narva. One has hits in 4 places, another had 2 hits and 3rd had no hits. Reason for landing: out of fuel and loss of orientation.

Tirkeltaub: 3 I-16 (5.ap)
Fighters belonged 13 OIAE, have made landing to ice of the Narva gulf.
andrus wrote:15.01.1940 one soviet plane fell down in northern Estonia near Kohila. Plane was total loss, 2 crew members killed and 1 wounded.
It DB-3 from structure 53 DBAP. After impact on site Loima - Junaia has sufferred accident in 20 km to the north of city Rapla.
andrus wrote:16.01.1940 14:25 1-engine single-seated biplane landed in western Estonia (Riguldi district, Spitham village). Plane turned over.

Tirkeltaub: near Osmussaar during forced landing 1 I-15 destroyed.
I-15bis (the pilot - Solovjev) from IAE 10 ABr. Has lost orientation, has broken the plane at an emergency landing.
andrus wrote:29.01.1940 17:40 plane from Kuusiku airbase fell down during forced landing in Albu district Saare village (central Estonia). Plane destroyed, crew members survived.
It is strange, that only one plane. This day emergency landings in Estonia have executed seven crews 53 DBAP. From them 5 with breakages and failures.
andrus wrote:29.01.1940 soviet fighter fell down near lake Klooga. Pilot killed.
Curiously, but such episode is not present. Is not present and the lost pilot even on modern databases. The second. On ice of lake Klooga there was a Soviet militarian an air base. I doubt, that there started up the Estonian policemen...
andrus wrote:13.02.1940 around three o'clock afternoon monoplane fighter with number 35 was destroyed 1,5 km from Pedassaare cape during forced landing on ice.
I-16 149 IAP. Loss of orientation. The pilot - A.P.Maslennikov. The plane скапотировал, is burnt by the pilot. Besides in Estonia some more bombers SB 31 SBAP and I-16 149 IAP sat.
andrus wrote:14.02.1940 in Laoküla airbase one damaged plane fell down and was destroyed.
What it for Laoküla? I do not know such Soviet base. Where it?
andrus wrote:17.02.1940 near Laoküla airbase fell down 2-engine bomber.
10 Abr had two emergency landings of the planes damaged in air fights. Both - in air base Paldiski.
andrus wrote:17.02.1940 near Madise church fell down another 2-engine bomber.
It for certain SB captain Gureeva, 10 Abr. Has fallen soon after rise with Paldiski.

andrus wrote:01.03.1940 near Osmussaare (59º30' N 23º15'O) fell down soviet plane. No persons hurt.
Anything suitable for this date has not found. But in general it is very similar to "double" from 16.01.40. Though it, certainly, the big question.
andrus wrote:04.03.1940 one soviet plane destroyed 0,5 km north of Vergi on ice of Finnish Bay

04.03.1940 fell down near Vergi village 11 km from coast bomber. Plane burned, crew found dead.
Petrov: 1 DB-3 (10.ab) 15 km to the north of coast.
Here I do not know what to add...
andrus wrote:11.03.1940 16:30 in Sinalepa airbase fell down 2-motor bomber.


SB 52 SBAP it is damaged in air I fight in area of station Herrala. Lieutenant Grehnev has finished the plane up to Sinalepa and has landed it on air base.
Harri wrote:Interesting information Andrus. It shows that the actual Soviet losses were much larger because these are in most cases "forgot" in official Soviet figures. Although many of these planes were perhaps moved away and repaired later (or used a source of spare parts) we can see the great number of fighters here.


As you can see, in the attitude "forgot" losses not all so is bad. If they also are, it is a little of them.

User avatar
Juha Tompuri
Forum Staff
Posts: 11531
Joined: 11 Sep 2002 20:02
Location: Mylsä

Re: Soviet aircraft crash-landings in Estonia during Winter War

Post by Juha Tompuri » 20 Apr 2009 20:06

Slon-76 wrote:
andrus wrote:15.01.1940 one soviet plane fell down in northern Estonia near Kohila. Plane was total loss, 2 crew members killed and 1 wounded.
It DB-3 from structure 53 DBAP. After impact on site Loima - Junaia has sufferred accident in 20 km to the north of city Rapla.
RS5 (Red Stars 5) mentions a DB-3 (Fomin) being hit by AAA at Tampere 160140, returned on one engine, written off.
Slon-76 wrote:
andrus wrote:29.01.1940 17:40 plane from Kuusiku airbase fell down during forced landing in Albu district Saare village (central Estonia). Plane destroyed, crew members survived.
It is strange, that only one plane. This day emergency landings in Estonia have executed seven crews 53 DBAP. From them 5 with breakages and failures.
RS5 and Finnish AF 1928-40 also mentions 7 planes, all W/O (written off from Soviet inventory).
One was captured by Finns, two shot down by Finnish fighters ( the other of them made a belly landind and was later repaired) one probably shot down (W/O in Finland), two were W/O in Estonia (Albu and 8km NE Pärnu) and one plane disappeared.



Slon-76 wrote:
andrus wrote:14.02.1940 in Laoküla airbase one damaged plane fell down and was destroyed.
What it for Laoküla? I do not know such Soviet base. Where it?
Laoküla = Keila?
According to the RS5 couple of I-15bis planes of 61 IAB were damaged that day and two SB-2 from 57 AP crashed somewhere that day
Slon-76 wrote:
andrus wrote:17.02.1940 near Laoküla airbase fell down 2-engine bomber.
10 Abr had two emergency landings of the planes damaged in air fights. Both - in air base Paldiski.
andrus wrote:17.02.1940 near Madise church fell down another 2-engine bomber.
It for certain SB captain Gureeva, 10 Abr. Has fallen soon after rise with Paldiski.
RS5 also mentions the Gureyev SB-2 and two W/O SB-2 belly landings after combat with Finnish fighters and one damaged after fighter combat.


Slon-76 wrote:
andrus wrote:04.03.1940 one soviet plane destroyed 0,5 km north of Vergi on ice of Finnish Bay

04.03.1940 fell down near Vergi village 11 km from coast bomber. Plane burned, crew found dead.
Petrov: 1 DB-3 (10.ab) 15 km to the north of coast.
Here I do not know what to add...
RS5 mentions the plane being from 10 AB 3 AE, crasherd on a ferry flight from Estonia to Bezzabotnoye. Crew and pasangers KIA ( total 6 persons)


Regards, Juha

andrus
Member
Posts: 95
Joined: 22 Aug 2005 12:28
Location: Estonia

Re: Soviet aircraft crash-landings in Estonia during Winter War

Post by andrus » 20 Apr 2009 21:29

It shows that the actual Soviet losses were much larger because these are in most cases "forgot" in official Soviet figures.
problem is that estonian sources don't allow us decide are these losses combat or noncombat losses. Not including noncombat losses is nothing special. For example, latest and greatest Suomen Ilmavoimat books doesn't list these too ;) At least, as Slon-76 shows us, these losses are included in soviet documents. So suggestion made by original thread starter, not to thrust soviet documents is definitely wrong.
we can see the great number of fighters here.
In the article no criteria is given, how they decided (either police or even author of the article), was plane bomber or fighter. Article contains much of guesswork, remember, in the year 1991 there was not much reliable data about soviet air forces in Estonia.
they could not prevent Estonian intelligence from co-operating with the Finnish intelligence. There was even a direct telecommunications cable from Estonia to Finland which Soviets found and cut later.
existence of cable is not a proof for teamwork during winter war :) We need better proof.
Except for 22 fighters which were sat down in Estonia for the period from February, 13 till February, 26. It not a typing error?
I saw this strange number too and double checked it :) Article contains number 22 and author operates with 82 forced-landed aircraft. So maybe author made mistake or already source contains typo? I haven't seen original documents.
The second. On ice of lake Klooga there was a Soviet militarian an air base. I doubt, that there started up the Estonian policemen...
location is given as 0,5 km from Klooga manor house.
What it for Laoküla? I do not know such Soviet base. Where it?
Laoküla and Madise church are both near Paldiski, http://maps.google.com
I was thinking that one plane was double reported, seems there really was 2 planes.
04.03.1940 [...] Here I do not know what to add...
So this seems to be double reporting?

ps.
Petrov's book contains some more dates and Tirkeltaub's russian-language book contains table with forced landings for navy aircraft, but i think both of these are already accessible to forum members participating in this discussion.

User avatar
Juha Tompuri
Forum Staff
Posts: 11531
Joined: 11 Sep 2002 20:02
Location: Mylsä

Re: Soviet aircraft crash-landings in Estonia during Winter War

Post by Juha Tompuri » 20 Apr 2009 22:06

andrus wrote:
they could not prevent Estonian intelligence from co-operating with the Finnish intelligence. There was even a direct telecommunications cable from Estonia to Finland which Soviets found and cut later.
existence of cable is not a proof for teamwork during winter war :) We need better proof.
The co-operation is mentioned for instance at the
Veljien Valtiosalaisuus (State secret of Brothers) by Jari Leskinen
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... it#p255665

Regards, Juha

kari lumppio
Member
Posts: 22
Joined: 29 Aug 2006 00:47
Location: Espoo, Finland

Re: Soviet aircraft crash-landings in Estonia during Winter War

Post by kari lumppio » 21 Apr 2009 02:19

Slon-76 wrote:
andrus wrote:29.01.1940 17:40 plane from Kuusiku airbase fell down during forced landing in Albu district Saare village (central Estonia). Plane destroyed, crew members survived.
It is strange, that only one plane. This day emergency landings in Estonia have executed seven crews 53 DBAP. From them 5 with breakages and failures.
andrus wrote:29.01.1940 soviet fighter fell down near lake Klooga. Pilot killed.
Curiously, but such episode is not present. Is not present and the lost pilot even on modern databases. The second. On ice of lake Klooga there was a Soviet militarian an air base. I doubt, that there started up the Estonian policemen...
Hei, privet & Tere Andrus ( püüad reostada hääd teema faktidega?)

I do not know why Laasi does not mention more bomber accidents for January 29th, 1940. In the original document at Riigiarhiiv, Fond F.1-7-157 there is mentioned alltogether 11 Soviet emergency landings/accidents for the day.

Of the Klooga fighter it writes: "kell 1100 kukkus alla Klooga järve lõunapoolsel kaldal 1 lennuk. Lendur nähtavasti sai surma. S.Vene võimud ei lase kedagi õnnetuskoha ligi" Translation: At 1100 o'clock 1 aeroplane fell down at the Southern bank of the Klooga lake. It seems the pilot was killed. S(oviet) Russian authorities do not allow anybody near the accident site.

I took some thirty digiphotos of the documents on the fond during my summerleave 2005. Unfortunately many of them are out of focus and almost unreadable. This one was clean.


Slon-76. I do like your work - archive research - but you should remember you are comparing Soviet/Russian archive documents to Finnish publications (books etc.). Be careful what you consider as a Finnish claim. Original Finnish document may be nearer to "your" truth than Keskinen et al books, for example.


Cheers,
Kari

User avatar
Slon-76
Member
Posts: 493
Joined: 02 Sep 2008 16:56
Location: Moscow

Re: Soviet aircraft crash-landings in Estonia during Winter War

Post by Slon-76 » 21 Apr 2009 07:50

kari lumppio wrote:Of the Klooga fighter it writes: "kell 1100 kukkus alla Klooga järve lõunapoolsel kaldal 1 lennuk. Lendur nähtavasti sai surma. S.Vene võimud ei lase kedagi õnnetuskoha ligi" Translation: At 1100 o'clock 1 aeroplane fell down at the Southern bank of the Klooga lake. It seems the pilot was killed. S(oviet) Russian authorities do not allow anybody near the accident site.
This much explains. Not clear, however, whence Laasi has taken "fighter". I.e. basically it could be, for example, coherent the plane. On such machines of the information it is valid a little...
kari lumppio wrote:Slon-76. I do like your work - archive research - but you should remember you are comparing Soviet/Russian archive documents to Finnish publications (books etc.). Be careful what you consider as a Finnish claim. Original Finnish document may be nearer to "your" truth than Keskinen et al books, for example.
I nevertheless have copies of some Finnish documents (thanks К. Stenmann). For example on victories LeR-2 over December - February. It is a little, but nevertheless.... Here that really strongly does not suffice, so it is information on the damaged Finnish planes repaired " on places ", i.e. without sending on VL. And about applications of Finnish air defence.
andrus wrote:
What it for Laoküla? I do not know such Soviet base. Where it?
Laoküla and Madise church are both near Paldiski, http://maps.google.com
I was thinking that one plane was double reported, seems there really was 2 planes.


Nevertheless, for failure 14.02.40 I have not found suitable variants. Though I do not have material on actions of the Air Forces of the Baltic fleet this day. Probably, there something is.
andrus wrote:
04.03.1940 [...] Here I do not know what to add...
So this seems to be double reporting?
Probably. At least, 10-n and Special air brigades this day did not fly. On the other hand, I do not know, how many planes flew from Paldiski in Bezzabotnoe. Basically, one more emergency landing is not excluded.


Regards

andrus
Member
Posts: 95
Joined: 22 Aug 2005 12:28
Location: Estonia

Re: Soviet aircraft crash-landings in Estonia during Winter War

Post by andrus » 21 Apr 2009 10:20

Juha Tompuri wrote:
andrus wrote:
they could not prevent Estonian intelligence from co-operating with the Finnish intelligence. There was even a direct telecommunications cable from Estonia to Finland which Soviets found and cut later.
existence of cable is not a proof for teamwork during winter war :) We need better proof.
The co-operation is mentioned for instance at the Veljien Valtiosalaisuus
my fault, i had in my mind proof for:
1. reports about force-landed soviet aircraft were transmitted to Finland
2. such reports were used during claim checking procedure

Quick look into Leskinen (estonian-language translation) didn't reveal any examples for this.

ps.
while looking thru Leskinen i found that Laasi's article is available in finnish language too, Sotahistoriallinen Aikauskirja 11/1992.

User avatar
Juha Tompuri
Forum Staff
Posts: 11531
Joined: 11 Sep 2002 20:02
Location: Mylsä

Re: Soviet aircraft crash-landings in Estonia during Winter War

Post by Juha Tompuri » 21 Apr 2009 20:17

andrus wrote:my fault, i had in my mind proof for:
No problem.
But were there any such claims that needed to be proofed?
andrus wrote:1. reports about force-landed soviet aircraft were transmitted to Finland
2. such reports were used during claim checking procedure

Quick look into Leskinen (estonian-language translation) didn't reveal any examples for this.
Finnish edition, from pages 354-356, my translation:
...Finland fought for it's survival, and that's why Finnish supreme HQ at Mikkeli needed all the intelligence info from Soviet losses, success and concentrations of forces.
At Finnish side the co-operation was organized by Major Reino Hallamaa, chief of Radio intelligence at HQ signal intelligence unit, who daily was in contact with his Estonian collague Captain Andres Kalmus, chief of signal intelligence at HQ intelligence office...
-------------------------------------
...What did the secret co-operation between Finland and Estonia in practice mean?
The signal intelligence led by Capt Kalmus snatched crypted radio messages ( a lot in the air because of Soviet attack) of Soviet air, land and naval units and their command. After that the Estonians decoded the messages...
--------------------------------------
...Captain Õun had been able to open the latest Soviet code system already at mid-september 1939, when USSR attacked Poland. A great luck was that Soviets still used the same code system that was possible for the Estonians to open...
-------------------------------------
...This all ment that the Estonians could open the sent and received messages of the regimental HQ level and AF and land force highest command. These messages contained the latest info from the troop strenght, locations, losses, success, future operation plans, and every other kind of info needed in warfare....
------------------------------------
...The Kalmus led radio intelligence gave the opened messages to the Finnish HQ intelligence office with a teleprinter via the Helsinki-Tallinn sea cable...
andrus wrote:ps.
while looking thru Leskinen i found that Laasi's article is available in finnish language too, Sotahistoriallinen Aikauskirja 11/1992.
The Laasi article is also used as source at Red Stars 5 too.

Regards, Juha

andrus
Member
Posts: 95
Joined: 22 Aug 2005 12:28
Location: Estonia

Re: Soviet aircraft crash-landings in Estonia during Winter War

Post by andrus » 22 Apr 2009 22:20

Juha Tompuri wrote:Finnish edition, from pages 354-356, my translation:
Very nice, but Harri claims in original topic http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 1#p1323421 :
The documents of the opposite party are just one way to confirm a victory. The other methods are for example: [...]
- intelligence (Soviet losses in Estonia were reported to Finland counting the plane wrecks around the airfields)
I did bring some data about these wrecks and now I'm interested were these numbers communicated to Finland and used in claim verifying procedures?
Unfortunately Leskinen speaks about radio communication intercepting and cryptology.

User avatar
Juha Tompuri
Forum Staff
Posts: 11531
Joined: 11 Sep 2002 20:02
Location: Mylsä

Re: Soviet aircraft crash-landings in Estonia during Winter War

Post by Juha Tompuri » 22 Apr 2009 23:33

andrus wrote:I did bring some data about these wrecks and now I'm interested were these numbers communicated to Finland and used in claim verifying procedures?
Unfortunately Leskinen speaks about radio communication intercepting and cryptology.
I don't know is it unfortunate, or not, but as it seems that Estonian intelligence could read the Soviet reports like an open book and that info seemed to have been passed to Finland, I have very little doubts that the Soviet aircraft crashes wouldn't have been included to that material delivered daily from the southern side of Finnish Gulf to the northern one.

Regards, Juha

Esa K
Member
Posts: 1254
Joined: 13 Jan 2005 13:49
Location: Sweden

Re: Soviet aircraft crash-landings in Estonia during Winter War

Post by Esa K » 23 Apr 2009 10:58

andrus wrote:I did bring some data about these wrecks and now I'm interested were these numbers communicated to Finland and used in claim verifying procedures?
Unfortunately Leskinen speaks about radio communication intercepting and cryptology.
Juha Tompuri wrote: I don't know is it unfortunate, or not, but as it seems that Estonian intelligence could read the Soviet reports like an open book and that info seemed to have been passed to Finland, I have very little doubts that the Soviet aircraft crashes wouldn't have been included to that material delivered daily from the southern side of Finnish Gulf to the northern one.
Think too it would been strange if the intelligence material from Estonia to Finland would not have contained info on Soviet planestrengths and so on. But the key question here maybe is if that material was used during the Winter War to confirm individual claims, or is that something thats for us to do now 70 years later. Could it be so that there was no wish 1939-1940 to let those outside Finnish Supreme HQ to know that such a cooperation existed, as it then could be revealed to a third party so to say. Well just some thoughts.


Best regards

Esa K

Return to “Winter War & Continuation War”