Short barreled Pak 40

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Laurence Strong
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Short barreled Pak 40

Post by Laurence Strong » 29 May 2009 14:37

Can anyone give me information and pictures, or a link to information and pictures of the short barreled version of the Pak 40?

Thanks for your help
Larry

Alanmccoubrey
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Re: Short barreled Pak 40

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 29 May 2009 14:53

Do you mean the Pak 50, a shortened Pak 40 barrel with a large box muzzlebrake and mounted on the Pak 38 carriage ?

Ian Hogg gives the Length of gun as 2245mm and the weight in action as 1100kg. Google produces mostly pics of models of it but they look quite accurate compared to the pic of the real thing in Hogg's "German Arty of WW2".
Alan

Laurence Strong
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Re: Short barreled Pak 40

Post by Laurence Strong » 29 May 2009 17:00

Hi Alan

Thats the one. Many thanks. Now that I know the name for it I found that the ACE homesite had a photo of it
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jopaerya
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Re: Short barreled Pak 40

Post by jopaerya » 29 May 2009 17:14

Hi

This is a picture of a weapon display for Hitler with the 7.5 cm PaK 50 .

Photo = B.P.K.

Regards Jos
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peeved
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Re: Short barreled Pak 40

Post by peeved » 29 May 2009 18:15

As noted in Waffen Revue No.102, the 7,5 cm Pak 50 was in fact a 5 cm Pak 38 with rebored and modified barrel. Note the similarity between the breech in Larry's 1.jpg and the Pak 38 breech photo below from Waffen Revue No.31 compared with Pak 40 breech at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pak40 ... i_rear.jpg . Jos' photo among other things is another proof to the fact since according to WR 102 the war-diary of "Organisations-Abteilung III des OKW" included the entry:
On 1. 10. 1943 the Führer was introduced the 5-cm-KwK and Pak 38 rebored to 7,5 cm.

Markus
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peeved
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Re: Short barreled Pak 40

Post by peeved » 29 May 2009 18:19

More Pak 50 photos from WR 102; Nos 2...5 originally from "ETO Ordnance Technical Intelligence Report No. 352" from 17th July 1945. Note the five-baffle muzzle brake in photo No. 2.
Markus
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Laurence Strong
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Re: Short barreled Pak 40

Post by Laurence Strong » 29 May 2009 21:02

Many thanks for those. So what was the envisioned role for this weapon. I read they were to be used in a IG type support role along with the AT capability. Is this correct?

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Re: Short barreled Pak 40

Post by jopaerya » 30 May 2009 06:30

Hello Laurence

I don't know for the PaK 50 but the PaK 37 was later in the war renamed in I.G. 37 .
Here the 2 type's one the carriage for the 3.7 cm PaK and the other one a Russian PaK carriage.

Photo's = Ebay and B.P.K.

Regards Jos

P.S. Thanks Markus for the additionel information
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Sturm78
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Re: Short barreled Pak 40

Post by Sturm78 » 30 May 2009 10:19

Great images of this rare weapons!! :D

I guess the 7.5cm Pak 50 would be developed to exploit the 5cm Pak 38 carriages, outdated in its AT role, but still useful for an infantry gun of this type, with a secondary anti-tank capability.

Regards Sturm78.

PD: Jopaerya, have not you any wartime photos of 8cm PAW 600? (via BPK or other source). I'm not able to find any pictures of this weapon. :cry:

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Manuferey
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Re: Short barreled Pak 40

Post by Manuferey » 30 May 2009 13:41

The IG37 gun actually looks very much like a 76 mm Regimental Gun M-1943 of the Red Army with the addition of a muzzle brake:

Here are some drawings and pictures of the 76 mm Russian gun for comparison:
http://www.armchairgeneral.com/rkkaww2/ ... y/guns.htm

So did the Germans got their inspiration from the Russian gun?

Emmanuel
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Laurence Strong
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Re: Short barreled Pak 40

Post by Laurence Strong » 30 May 2009 13:49

Thanks everyone for the info. I had not seen the Pak 36 conversion before. Was the Pak 50 made in large numbers?

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Re: Short barreled Pak 40

Post by peeved » 30 May 2009 14:24

Laurence Strong wrote:Was the Pak 50 made in large numbers?

AFAIK No. According to Wehrmacht record sheets quoted in WR 102, from 1.1.1944 to 1.10.1944 the total acceptance of 5-cm-Pak 38 rebored to 7,5-cm-Pak 50 was zero.

Below tech data for the two examples captured.

Markus
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Re: Short barreled Pak 40

Post by jopaerya » 30 May 2009 15:51

Hello

@ Emmanuel I don't know if that could be the reason for the gun , the guns are from the same year 1943/44 .

@ Sturm78 , sorry I don't have a war time picture of the 8 cm PAW 600 .

Regards Jos

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Re: Short barreled Pak 40

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 30 May 2009 17:37

Peeveed, The Pak 50 was not a Pak 38 rebored to 75mm but a 75mm with a shortened barrel and placed on the Pak 38 carriage.

Sturm 78, there are some pics of the 8cm PAW 600 on Google.
Alan

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Re: Short barreled Pak 40

Post by peeved » 30 May 2009 18:19

Alanmccoubrey wrote:Peeveed, The Pak 50 was not a Pak 38 rebored to 75mm but a 75mm with a shortened barrel and placed on the Pak 38 carriage.


Exactly what primary sources support that widely circulated supposition? Sources like the following from Waffen Revue No.102:
The war diary of Organisations-Abteilung III des OKW which, in addition to the earlier quote about the introduction of the 5-cm-Pak 38 rebored to 7,5-cm to Hitler which corresponds to photographical evidence of the meeting which Jos has provided, has an entry from 3.10.1943 that translates roughly into:
2) 7,5-cm-Pak 50 (Pak 38 rebored)
a) Performance increase of the former 5-cm-Pak.
b) About 3500 barrels can be considered for the conversion. Reboring is to take place within the field army. According to a report from the WaA this reboring cannot take place within the field army.


And

an entry from 25.10.1943 reading something like:
7,5-cm-Pak 50 (Pak 38 rebored)
Since the reboring to calibre 7,5 can not be accomplished by forward troops a proposal for another possibility is asked for.


Additionally from 1.9.1943 Wehrmacht record sheets for the 5-cm-Pak 38 show an additional entry
rebored to 7,5-cm-Pak 50


Markus

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