Yugoslave artillery 1941

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Dili
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Re: Yugoslave artillery 1941

Post by Dili » 02 Jul 2009 15:55

Great Thanks! I will let you finish it then i'll put some questions to not cut the flow.

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The Edge
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Re: Yugoslave artillery 1941

Post by The Edge » 03 Jul 2009 09:34

Dili wrote:Great Thanks! I will let you finish it then i'll put some questions to not cut the flow.
Unfortunately, I have some private issues :( , so "flow" would continue to run after weekend. :)

In meantime prepare (post) some questions, I like to think over the subject/data before answering. 8-)
(Can't change the nature - Capricornus) :lol:

New stuff I found are composition of fortress artillery regiment in Boka Kotorska (locations / units) and Yugoslav plan for garrison/fortress border regiments & fortification sectors (some mentioned in previous posts) - in form of map. :wink:

Dili
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Re: Yugoslave artillery 1941

Post by Dili » 03 Jul 2009 20:17

Okay hope all ends well.

I understand i am a bit like you in that i like to let things grow.

Excellent news about Boka. In the end you might write a book! :lol:

-those border Regiments would be at full complement? were they more like Police force or were full Infantry Regiments?

- Was there any practical difference between a Corps in other armies and the Yugoslav Armies?

-Those double lines in your map i suppose separate front sectors/territory?

Sturm78
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Re: Yugoslave artillery 1941

Post by Sturm78 » 05 Jul 2009 23:49

Hi all,

Have somebody any information and/or photos about the 305mm Skoda M11/30 (30.5cm Mrs 639j for germans)?
I suppose this designation correspond to a modernization of the 305mm M11 Skoda, but... what was the change?
Was the modernization made by the Yugoslav industry? I know that Hungarian also upgraded their Skoda 305mm M11 howitzers and I have seen one photo of a modernized hungarian Skoda 305mm M11.
Can anyone help me?


Regards Sturm78

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The Edge
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Re: Yugoslave artillery 1941

Post by The Edge » 06 Jul 2009 13:11

Episode III :D

6th Army
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
17a Banat Army Detachment – majority (Panchevo)
17b Banat Army Detachment – part (Alibunar)
17c Banat Army Detachment – 4th Cavalry Regiment (Vrshac)
18 SREM Division – majority (south of Beograd)
18a SREM Division – part (Novi Sad)
18b SREM Division – part (Ruma)
19a 2nd Cavalry Division – 1st Cavalry Regiment (Nish)
19b 2nd Cavalry Division – 5th Cavalry Regiment (Smederevska Palanka)
20 DUNAV Division (Mladenovac)
20a Sava Army Detachment (south of Beograd)
A – Smederevo Army Detachment (Smederevo)
B – Pozharevac Army Detachment (Pozharevac)
C – Branichevo Army Detachment (Branichevo region)
Including Four Regiments of Reserve / Garrison troops
+ Two Heavy Motorized Artillery Regiments (111th & 112th)

For very interesting Sava & Banat Detachments, see: http://www.vojska.net/eng/world-war-2/k ... n/1941/#6A

5th Army
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
21 KRAJINA Division – majority (Donji Milanovac – Negotin)
21a KRAJINA Division – part (Kragujevac)
22 TIMOK Division (Bor – Zajechar – Negotin)
23 TOPLICA Division (Pirot)
24 DRINA Division – majority (Crna Trava)
24a DRINA Division – part (Valjevo)
25 Vlasina Army Detachment – majority (Bosilegrad)
25a Vlasina Army Detachment – part (Krushevac)
26 Kalna Army Detachment (Kalna)
Including Four Regiments of Reserve / Garrison troops
+ Heavy Motorized Artillery Regiment
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Last edited by The Edge on 08 Jul 2009 10:25, edited 1 time in total.

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The Edge
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Re: Yugoslave artillery 1941

Post by The Edge » 06 Jul 2009 13:17

Dili wrote: -those border Regiments would be at full complement? were they more like Police force or were full Infantry Regiments?
Peacetime - only one battalion of border troops; Full regiment (three battalions) wartime structure.
- Was there any practical difference between a Corps in other armies and the Yugoslav Armies?
With 3 to 4 divisions strength, Yugoslav "Army" is just a large Corps.
-Those double lines in your map i suppose separate front sectors/territory?
YES
More stuff - probably Wednesday :D

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The Edge
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Re: Yugoslave artillery 1941

Post by The Edge » 06 Jul 2009 13:25

Sturm78 wrote:Have somebody any information and/or photos about the 305mm Skoda M11/30 (30.5cm Mrs 639j for germans)?
I suppose this designation correspond to a modernization of the 305mm M11 Skoda, but... what was the change?
Was the modernization made by the Yugoslav industry? I know that Hungarian also upgraded their Skoda 305mm M11 howitzers and I have seen one photo of a modernized hungarian Skoda 305mm M11.
Can anyone help me?

Regards Sturm78
AFIK these Yugoslav 305mm M.11/30 Skoda were practically old M.11 model. Yugoslavia bought them as "second-hand" weapons at discount price. I believe all "30" modification is something connected to more modern motor-towing (details such as wheels, suspension, etc.), all performed in Czechoslovakia before delivery.

YAN
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Re: Yugoslave artillery 1941

Post by YAN » 06 Jul 2009 16:06

Hi, I have found this on an old floppy disc, I dont know if this was a relation of the weapon mentioned.
Yan.

30.5cm M.16 Siege Mortar
Calibre: 305mm
Year: 1916
Barrel Length: L/12
Weight In Action: 23.000 kg
Elevation:
Traverse:
Muzzle Velocity: 450 m/s
Shell Weight: 380 kg
Rate Of Fire:
Maximum Range: 12.300m

Dili
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Re: Yugoslave artillery 1941

Post by Dili » 07 Jul 2009 02:20

More stuff - probably Wednesday :D [/quote]

Great.
-Why 17c 19a,19b are at green color in Map?
-Btw that link you posted have 2nd Cavalry Div in 5th Army with a question mark for 6th so you do have confirmed it is in 6th Army i suppose.
-In same website Banat Odred TOE says 4th Infantry Rgt and 8th Cavalry Rgt but you refer to 4th Cavalry Regiment (Vrshac). Some sort of typo or mistake?

Thanks

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The Edge
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Re: Yugoslave artillery 1941

Post by The Edge » 08 Jul 2009 10:06

Epizode IV :D

3rd Army Group
========================================

3rd Territorial Army
---------------------------------------------------------------------
27 MORAVA Division (Kumanovo – Kriva Palanka)
28 BREGALNICA Division (Shtip – Carevo Selo - Berovo)
28a Strumica Army Detachment (Strumica)
29 SHUMADIA Division – majority (Veles)
29a SHUMADIA Division – part (Chachak – Gornji Milanovac)
19c 5th Cavalry Regiment of 2nd Cavalry Division – (Skoplje)
+ Heavy Motorized Artillery Regiment (114th)
+ Two tank companies
Including Four Regiments of Reserve / Garrison troops

3rd Army
----------------------------------------------------------------------
30 VARDAR Division – majority (Ohrid)
30a VARDAR Division – part (Bitolj)
30b VARDAR Division – part (Debar)
31 KOSOVO Division (Pec – Djakovica - Prizren)
32a ZETA Division – majority (Nikshic - Podgorica)
32b ZETA Division – part (Bar)
33 KOM Army Detachment (Gusinje)
34 HERCEGOVINA Division (Mostar)
Including Six Regiments of Reserve / Garrison troops

D (Gostivar) & E – (Kichevo) I’m not sure what this units are; (Whether they belonged to Vardar Division, or these are reserve 22nd & 47th Inf. Regiments – if so, they are under Supreme HQ Control; no “detachment” title implies regimental sized units)

3rd Army Group Reserve:
---------------------------------------------------------------------
35 IBAR Division (Prishtina - Uroshevac)
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The Edge
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Re: Yugoslave artillery 1941

Post by The Edge » 08 Jul 2009 10:17

Last epizode :(

Coastal Defense Command ("TRUPE PRIMORSKE OBLASTI" at the map)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
36 Boka Kotorska Command
36a Trebinje Army Detachment (Trebinje)
36b Chapljina Army Detachment (Chapljina)
37 Shibenik Command
38 JADRANSKA Division – majority (Knin)
38b JADRANSKA Division – part
Including Four Regiments of Reserve / Garrison troops


SUPREME HQ RESERVES
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

39 DINARA Division (Split – Sinj)
This division was still in mobilization phase; Scheduled to move to Sarajevo.

40 LIKA Division – part (Karlovac)
40a LIKA Division – part (Otochac)
40b LIKA Division – part (Doboj)
This division was in the move to 2nd Army Sector (Doboj - Modricha)

41 UNA Division – part (Banja Luka)
41a UNA Division – part (Bihac)
41b UNA Division – part (Sisak)
41c UNA Division – part (Ruma)
This division was in the move to 1st Army Sector (Ruma - Stara Pazova)

42 CER Division – part (Shabac)
42a CER Division – part (Tuzla)
42b CER Division – part (Bijeljina)
This division was in the move to 6th Army Sector (Shabac - Mladenovac)
+ Two tank companies in the same region

22nd Infantry Regiment – in 3rd Army Sector
37th Infantry Regiment – in 7th Army Sector
47th Infantry Regiment – in 3rd Army Sector
48th Infantry Regiment – in 3rd Army Sector

Also:
- One machine-gun battalion
- Two anti-tank artillery battalions
- Eight trench mortar battalions (4 light & 4 heavy)
- 18 "heavy" artillery battalions (of medium artillery)
- Two anti-aircraft artillery battalions
- One searchlights battalion
- Seven pontoon bridge engineer battalions
- One heavy bridges battalion
- 1st Tank battalion (R-35 tanks)

NOTE: Although temporary assigned to various armies, Cavalry divisions, Guards units and Motorized heavy artillery regiments were considered as Supreme HQ assets also.
(That's why I put Cavalry Regiments green; I will deal with organization of Yugoslav in some following post.)
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The Edge
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Re: Yugoslave artillery 1941

Post by The Edge » 08 Jul 2009 10:53

Dili wrote: -Btw that link you posted have 2nd Cavalry Div in 5th Army with a question mark for 6th so you do have confirmed it is in 6th Army i suppose.
-In same website Banat Odred TOE says 4th Infantry Rgt and 8th Cavalry Rgt but you refer to 4th Cavalry Regiment (Vrshac). Some sort of typo or mistake?
I'm now on vacation, but I plan to put more stuff later. :D

As you can see from the new map (19c location added), it is not clear where the 2nd Cavalry Division really are. My impression is that its regiments were given independant role during mobilization period and assigned to nearest Army commands. Division peacetime HQ was Nish (location 19a, 5th Army Sector).

If you check the site again, 4th Inf. Regiment is also given as part of IBAR division (3rd Army Group Reserve).
Vrshac was 4th Cavalry Rgm. peacetime location (also its mobilization area). Its assignment to "Banat" detacment is both temporary and circumstantial. (In its given composition, "Banat" was kinda ad hoc cavalry division.)
8th Cav. Regiment was in Chakovec, with 1st Cavalry Division (location 9c on map "1st Army Group")
Also note (from the previously posted table of peactime Yugoslav formations), that location of 8th Infantry Rgm. was Panchevo (17a).

So, "Banat" had 4TH CAV. & 8TH INF. Regiments assigned! :D ("classic" disposition mistake)

( Elementary, my dear friends, elementary! 8-) )

Many regards,

Edge / Antic

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BTW, observe edit on 5th Army units :idea: (I corrected the copy/paste mistake - two last lines omitted)

Dili
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Re: Yugoslave artillery 1941

Post by Dili » 08 Jul 2009 21:20

Thanks excellent Mr.Holmes ! :P . I'll start correcting my map this weekend.

I'll be right saying that the detachments were the units that resisted more against Axis because they had most of the troops ? I am assuming that they got most the forces that could be found in ongoing mobilization process. The HQ's faced with an uneven arriving of soldiers to unit bases, ad-hoc groups were made.
I think that detachments were made just before War or even in War, so temporary, but i might be wrong.

Edit: - the Hvy. Artillery Regiment i have in 5th Army is the elusive 113th.
- This kind of informations, like the story of Banat Detachment are hidden in vaults in Belgrade or they are forever lost?

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Re: Yugoslave artillery 1941

Post by Sturm78 » 10 Jul 2009 19:07

Hi all again,

I have in my computer this picture of a 305mm Skoda howitzer (barrel trailer) captured by German troops in Yugoslavia in 1941. I do not see any difference with the original 305mm Skoda M11 model. It seems like the original model, including the old wheels, ... :?

I think the question about Yugoslav 305mm Skoda M.11-30 will be difficult to resolve. Any other idea?


Regards Sturm78.
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Manuferey
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Re: Yugoslave artillery 1941

Post by Manuferey » 12 Jul 2009 21:29

Reading through this post, it looks like the Jugoslav Army only had the 30,5 cm M.11/30 and no M.11. Thus, any picture of a M.11-looking howitzer in 1941 in Jugoslavia would be a M.11/30 model. Would that be a correct assumption?

Emmanuel

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