Marx quotation : "revolutionary holocaust"?

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Homer1
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Marx quotation : "revolutionary holocaust"?

Post by Homer1 » 03 Jul 2009 12:51

I watched videos from documentary The Soviet Story and there is quotation of Marx that says:
"The classes and the races too weak to master the new conditions of life must give way… They must perish in the revolutionary holocaust"
- Karl Marx ( Marx People’s Paper, April 16, 1856, Journal of the History of Idea, 1981 )
I wonder can it be true, because I think world holocaust apeared only after WW2?

videos
Left-wing roots of the Nazis
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4758sBZLC5k
Why killing is essential to communism
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3uFUxMw ... re=related
Last edited by Homer1 on 03 Jul 2009 14:34, edited 1 time in total.

Homer1
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Re: Marx quotation : ""?

Post by Homer1 » 03 Jul 2009 12:52

Homer1 wrote:I watched videos from documentary The Soviet Story and there is quotation of Marx that says:
"The classes and the races too weak to master the new conditions of life must give way… They must perish in the revolutionary holocaust"
- Karl Marx ( Marx People’s Paper, April 16, 1856, Journal of the History of Idea, 1981 )
I wonder can it be true, because I think world holocaust apeared only after WW2?

videos
Left-wing roots of the Nazis
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4758sBZLC5k
Why killing is essential to communism
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3uFUxMw ... re=related
Anoter quotation
"The chief mission of all other races and peoples, large and small, is to perish in the revolutionary holocaust." -Karl Marx Die Neue Rheinische Zeitung NZR January 1849
http://udemokratisk.blogspot.com/2009/0 ... tater.html

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Marx quotation : ""?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 03 Jul 2009 13:03

Hi Homer,

From memory, so this needs checking, Simon Schama said in his TV series on the history of Britain that the first recorded use of the word "holocaust" to describe the killing of Jews was about those massacred at York in 1190.

Cheers,

Sid.
Last edited by Sid Guttridge on 03 Jul 2009 13:11, edited 1 time in total.

Art
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Re: Marx quotation : ""?

Post by Art » 03 Jul 2009 13:09

For some ctiticism of the film mentioned including the episode with the Marx's "holocaust" see (pdf, 1.4 MB):
http://historyfoundation.ru/dl.php?url= ... 40.pdf&nn=

Karl
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Re: Marx quotation : ""?

Post by Karl » 03 Jul 2009 13:13

help:

'He is to wash the inner parts and the legs in water, and the priest is to burn all of it on the altar. It is a burnt offering, an offering made by fire, an aroma pleasing to the Lord.'
Leviticus 1:9

[note to the verse: The whole sacrifice was to be burned up (v.9) including the head, legs, fat and inner organs. It is therefore sometimes called a holocaust offering (holo means "whole," and caust means "burnt").]
[additionally: Middle English via Old French holocauste and Late Latin holocaustum from Greek holokauston...

Karl

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Re: Marx quotation : "revolutionary holocaust"?

Post by Karl » 03 Jul 2009 22:26

So whoever decided it was a clever thing to connect the term with the slaughter of a people (was it that tv series) was not only using it inappropriatly but incorrectly (unless he was trying to be dramatic like Marx or simply ironic but only a nazi or commie would think like that). Now it's stuck.

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phylo_roadking
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Re: Marx quotation : "revolutionary holocaust"?

Post by phylo_roadking » 04 Jul 2009 02:45

No, it was in use as early as during the war for any largescale massacre by Nazi Germany, Jews or non-Jews, while in the 1920s it was being used by Winston Churchill and others to describe the Armenian Genocide. From the 1960s on it rapidly became used for the Shoah exclusively in the Western world, although Holocaust/Shoah was institutionalised as a reference term in Israel by the Knesset in 1951.

The first known Jewish use of "Holocaust" as a translation for "Shoah" is apparently in 1940 in a translation made in Jerusalem of a book title Sho'at Yehudei Polin, which was translated as The Holocaust of the Jews of Poland.

Karl
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Re: Marx quotation : "revolutionary holocaust"?

Post by Karl » 04 Jul 2009 04:01

'Concentrate in your work!'

Homer1
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Re: Marx quotation : ""?

Post by Homer1 » 05 Jul 2009 11:29

Art wrote:For some ctiticism of the film mentioned including the episode with the Marx's "holocaust" see (pdf, 1.4 MB):
http://historyfoundation.ru/dl.php?url= ... 40.pdf&nn=
I cheked it. Aparently Marx said nothing about Holocaut
3.1. Karl Marx calling for “the revolutionary Holocaust”
According to the authors of the fi lm, Karl Marx, the founder of Marxism,
called for destruction of small nations. The following text appears
against the portrait of Marx: “Classes and races, too weak to cope with new
conditions of life, must give way... They must “disappear in the revolutionary
Holocaust”. Karl Marx”. Two references are given: to Marx’s article in
“The Peoples Paper” dated April 16, 1853 and, for some reason, to “Journal
of the History of Ideas”, Issue 1 of 1981.
All this seems solid and should convince the viewer of veracity of the
fi lm’s authors’ claims. However, striking facts show up if we check these
sources.
To begin with, Marx’s article on April 16, 1953 was published in “The
Peoples Paper” indeed. But it did not contain words about “classes and
races”, which should give way to somebody. As a matter of fact, the article
is concerned with general economic problems:
“Feeling their empty pockets, our readers have a bitter experience of their
own, and see that on the shoulders of the nation a debt burden of 800000000
pounds was put as a result of past fi nancial machinations – Marx wrote. –
The debt was made primarily to prevent the liberation of American colonies
and counter the French Revolution of the previous century...”

Verifi cation of the second quotation regarding the “revolutionary Holocaust
brings us to the article “The Magyar Struggle”, published January 13,
1849 in the newspaper “Neue Rheinische Zeitung”. However, the author is
Engels, not Marx, and the words about the “revolutionary holocaust” can
not be found there also. Engels wrote about “revolutionary” and “counterrevolutionary”
nations, the former viable by their nature, whereas the latter
are not:
The year 1848 fi rst of all brought with it the most terrible chaos for Austria
by setting free for a short time all these different nationalities which, owing to
Metternich, had hitherto been enslaving one another. The Germans, Magyars,
Czechs, Poles, Moravians, Slovaks, Croats, Ruthenians, Rumanians, Illyrians
and Serbs came into confl ict with one another, while within each of these
nationalities a struggle went on also between the different classes. But soon
order came out of this chaos. The combatants divided into two large camps: the
Germans, Poles and Magyars took the side of revolution; the remainder, all the
Slavs, except for the Poles, the Rumanians and Transylvanian Saxons, took
the side of counter-revolution.
How did this division of the nations come about, what was its basis?
The division is in accordance with all the previous history of the nationalities
in question. It is the beginning of the decision on the life or death of all these
nations, large and small.
All the earlier history of Austria up to the present day is proof of this
and 1848 confi rmed it. Among all the large and small nations of Austria,
only three standard-bearers of progress took an active part in history, and still
retain their vitality — the Germans, the Poles and the Magyars. Hence they
are now revolutionary.
All the other large and small nationalities and peoples are destined to perish
before long in the revolutionary world storm. For that reason they are now
counter-revolutionary...
There is no country in Europe which does not have in some corner or other one
or several ruined fragments of peoples, the remnant of a former population that
was suppressed and held in bondage by the nation which later became the main
vehicle of historical development. These relics of a nation mercilessly trampled
under foot in the course of history, as Hegel says, these residual fragments
of peoples always become fanatical standard-bearers of counter-revolution and
remain so until their complete extirpation or loss of their national character,
just as their whole existence in general is itself a protest against a great historical
revolution.
Such, in Scotland, are the Gaels, the supporters of the Stuarts from 1640
to 1745.
Such, in France, are the Bretons, the supporters of the Bourbons from
1792 to 1800.
Such, in Spain, are the Basques, the supporters of Don Carlos.
Such, in Austria, are the pan-Slavist Southern Slavs, who are nothing
but the residual fragment of peoples, resulting from an extremely confused
thousand years of development. That this residual fragment, which is likewise
extremely confused, sees its salvation only in a reversal of the whole European
movement...
The Magyar cause is not in such a bad way as mercenary black-and-yellow
colours of the Austrian fl ag] enthusiasm would have us believe. The Magyars
are not yet defeated. But if they fall, they will fall gloriously, as the last heroes
of the 1848 revolution, and only for a short time. Then for a time the Slav
counter-revolution will sweep down on the Austrian monarchy with all its
barbarity, and the camarilla will see what sort of allies it has. But at the fi rst
victorious uprising of the French proletariat, which Louis Napoleon is striving
with all his might to conjure up, the Austrian Germans and Magyars will be
set free and wreak a bloody revenge on the Slav barbarians. The general war
which will then break out will smash this Slav Sonderbund and wipe out all
these petty hidebound nations, down to their very names.
The next world war will result in the disappearance from the face of
the earth not only of reactionary classes and dynasties, but also of entire
reactionary peoples. And that, too, is a step forward.

Today Engels’s viewpoint may seem outrageously politically incorrect,
but in the middle of the XIX century the idea of “historical” and “nonhistorical”
nations was common. It was fi rst voiced by Hegel, who based
his philosophy of history on the principle of the world progress to be accomplished
by Germans and Anglo-Saxons. This, however, does not imply
that Hegel called for destruction of any nations. Engels does not call for
destruction of “counterrevolutionary” nations either; he merely predicts
that these peoples will be destroyed during a world war by those opressed
“ progressive” nations.
As we can see, the authors of the fi lm have jumbled and distorted statements
of Marx and Engels beyond recognition. This was made in order
to convince the viewer that the Holocaust, i.e the murder of people, was
estimated positively in the Soviet Union. However, no proof of that is avail-
able. Moreover, it is common knowledge that the Soviet leaders’ approach
to interpreting the works of Marx and Engels was rather utilitarian.
Thus, in July 1934, Stalin found it inappropriate to publish Engels’s article
“The foreign policy of Russian tsarism” in the “Bolshevik” magazine
and exposed it to serious criticism.37 In August of the same year he wrote:
“The fact that Engels has been our teacher can be questioned only by idiots.
But this does not necessarily follow that we should conceal Engels’s mistakes,
that we should hide them and – even more so – pass them off as indisputable
truth. Such a policy would have been the policy of lies and deception. Nothing
is so contrary to the spirit of Marxism and the precepts of Marx and Engels,
as such policy, unworthy of Marxists. Marx and Engels themselves said that
Marxism was not a dogma, but a guide for action. This explains that Marx
and Engels themselves repeatedly revised and complemented some statements in
their works “.

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Re: Marx quotation : "revolutionary holocaust"?

Post by jola » 05 Jul 2009 12:57

The first known Jewish use of "Holocaust" as a translation for "Shoah" is apparently in 1940 in a translation made in Jerusalem of a book title Sho'at Yehudei Polin, which was translated as The Holocaust of the Jews of Poland.
In 1940? There was no large scale killing of Jews in 1940 or prior to 1942.

Frankfurter
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Re: Marx quotation : "revolutionary holocaust"?

Post by Frankfurter » 05 Jul 2009 14:47

One should argue at the political message behind the film.
While its good to research the huge Stalinist crimes and remind the world that Stalin was just Satan beating the devil, it should be done in a scientifically correct way. From what I´ve read this film is far from that.
Stalin was bad enough, it makes no sense to make him worse than he was, more than 60 years after the war.

As for the Marx quote, seems the filmmakers got it wrong or forged it, though in this point I´m unable to judge if Marx defenders are not objective, too.
Both sides, the filmmakers and the largely Russian critics, surely have a more or less hidden agenda.

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phylo_roadking
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Re: Marx quotation : "revolutionary holocaust"?

Post by phylo_roadking » 05 Jul 2009 14:53

Jola -
In 1940? There was no large scale killing of Jews in 1940 or prior to 1942
...the gross mistreatment of the Jews of Poland didn't necessarily mean just killing them. For instance - remember that the short trip to the camps...was the end of several years of controlled starvation and disease in the Ghettos... 8O

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Re: Marx quotation : "revolutionary holocaust"?

Post by David Thompson » 05 Jul 2009 16:16

jola -- You wrote:
The first known Jewish use of "Holocaust" as a translation for "Shoah" is apparently in 1940 in a translation made in Jerusalem of a book title Sho'at Yehudei Polin, which was translated as The Holocaust of the Jews of Poland.
In 1940? There was no large scale killing of Jews in 1940 or prior to 1942.
This is a matter of perspective. We know that there were mass shootings of Jews, Polish priests and aristocrats in 1939-40, and that German Army commanders complained about them. Though these killings must have seemed massive at the time the book was written c. 1940, the number of victims was substantially smaller than those of the murder operations which began in 1942.

For interested readers -- See:

Hitler and Murders in Poland 1939-1940
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=24138

Karl
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Re: Marx quotation : "revolutionary holocaust"?

Post by Karl » 06 Jul 2009 01:02

So when are we going to deconstruct the title of this section. :D

michael mills
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Re: Marx quotation : "revolutionary holocaust"?

Post by michael mills » 06 Jul 2009 04:04

The first known Jewish use of "Holocaust" as a translation for "Shoah" is apparently in 1940 in a translation made in Jerusalem of a book title Sho'at Yehudei Polin, which was translated as The Holocaust of the Jews of Poland.
Do you know for a fact that that book was translated into English? Do you know for a fact that the word "holocaust" was used in the title?

The book "Shoat Yehudei Polin" was written in Hebrew and published in Palestine by Apolinary Hartglas, who had managed to get of Poland and migrate to that country. The book relates what he had seen and learned in Poland before he left. Obviously he used the word "shoah" not to denote killing specifically, but rather the fact that the Jewish community of Poland was the process of being crushed and reduced to ruin, and that it would eventually disappear.

I have not seen any reference to the book's having been translated into English in 1940. It is possible that it was translated much later, and the word "Holocaust" was used in accordance with practice that became established in the 1960s or later.

It should be noted that the Hebrew word "shoah" means "destruction" or "desolation", as for example in the description of a city lying in ruins. It does not have the sense of "sacrifice", which the Greek word "holocauston" originally had, since that was was specifically coined to denote the Jewish "burnt offering" in Greek translations of the Hebrew Bible. It does not necessarily suggest killing and the burning of bodies.

The earliest works published in English by Jews or in Israel therefore used the word "destruction" to convey the idea of "shoah". The word "Holocaust" as used specifically to denote the mass-killing of Jews during the Second World War appears to have been the invention of English-speaking Jews in the United States.

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