Wrong/False/Incorrect Identification in connection to Peiper

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AlifRafikKhan
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Wrong/False/Incorrect Identification in connection to Peiper

Post by AlifRafikKhan » 27 Jul 2009 01:50

1st SS Panzer Division advanced in parallel battle groups, its most aggressive led by SS Lieutenant Colonel Jochen Peiper. Although usually identified as Peiper, this is in fact not him. A signpost points to Malmedy, where 84 US soldiers were murdered, for which Peiper was condemned to death, a sentence later commuted...
So, who is this guy, mis-identification as Jochen Peiper, and already noted in several books and sites?

Thanks in advance! :)

Source : Book "World War II In Photographs" by Carlton Books
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PATRICK CHARRON
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Re: Wrong/False/Incorrect Identification

Post by PATRICK CHARRON » 27 Jul 2009 10:45

Hi,

In Leibstandarte 1943-1945 by Charles Trang Heimdal 2008 identified as Oscha Persin and Uscha Ochsner (first identified by Jean Paul Pallud in Battle of the Bulge 1984 according C.Trang)

Regards
Patrick

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Re: Wrong/False/Incorrect Identification

Post by AlifRafikKhan » 27 Jul 2009 13:08

Thanks Patrick! :D

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Harro
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Re: Wrong/False/Incorrect Identification

Post by Harro » 27 Jul 2009 15:42

And I am still very curious where Pallud got those names and if he identified them correctly (given some incorrect identifications in his book).
Why not write and ask him
Phil Nix

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Re: Wrong/False/Incorrect Identification

Post by gto » 28 Jul 2009 00:31

Obersturmführer Fritz Butschek (2./AR 1 LAH)

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Harro
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Re: Wrong/False/Incorrect Identification

Post by Harro » 28 Jul 2009 12:26

Fritz Butschek? You're probabely referring to another photo from that series - the one Pallud misidentified as "Walter Leidreiter" (page 156). Some veterans say it's Coblenz, some say it's Butschek

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Re: Wrong/False/Incorrect Identification

Post by AlifRafikKhan » 26 Oct 2009 15:26

I believe this photo shows the same person as above. Maybe with a clearer picture now we can truly identify him?

Source : Book "Ardennes 1944" by James R. Arnold
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Re: Wrong/False/Incorrect Identification in connection to Peiper

Post by Harro » 26 Oct 2009 18:10

Still curious where Pallud found the names Ochsner and Persin.

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Re: Wrong/False/Incorrect Identification in connection to Pe

Post by AlifRafikKhan » 22 Sep 2010 00:26

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Re: Wrong/False/Incorrect Identification in connection to Pe

Post by AlifRafikKhan » 10 Feb 2012 12:13

This image taken at the Kaiserbaracke Crossroads (Rollbahn E) on December 18 1944 is from a captured German PK film. Most likely a stage publicity shot. The Grenadiers in these famous stills are often captioned being “SS-Unterscharführer Ochsner” and “SS-Oberscharführer Persin” of the 1.SS-Panzer-Division's reconnaissance unit on the southern route of the German counter-attack in the Ardennes. However, SS-Panzer-Aufklarungs-Abteilung.1 veterans having no memories of either of them. Nor are they listed in the Volksbund database or in the address lists of the Truppenkameradschaft.
Source: "FATAL CROSSROADS, The Untold Story of the Malmédy Massacre" By Danny S. Parker (Author)

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Re: Wrong/False/Incorrect Identification in connection to Pe

Post by Harro » 10 Feb 2012 12:25

Guess who advised Danny on that matter ;)
Harro wrote:I never came across a Persin or Ochsner in any document, not in the Anschriftliste of the Truppenkameradschaft AA LAH, not in the Volksbund database and none of the veterans I asked knew them. I know Pallud introduced these names in the early 1980's but I still wonder about his source. Several people in the photos in his book, including photos from the Kaiserbaracke crossroads, have been misidentified so how reliable are the names Persin and Ochsner?
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0&t=137016
Harro wrote:Veterans of SS AA 1 have no clue about Persin or Ochsner, though some say they "might have been" with the Versorgungskompanie. They are not listed on the address list of the SS AA 1 Truppenkameradschaft and not in the Volksbund database. I have no clue who ever introduced these names in a publication for the first time. The first Schwimmer in the Kaiserbaracke pics is the vehicle of an Obersturmführer and his driver. From comparing the Ostuf. with one from 1948 is becomes most probable that it's Heinz Goltz, in December 1944 the commander of the Stabskompanie. However, this does not mean the second Schwimmer - the one with "Persin" and "Ochsner" belongs to the Stabskompanie or even the SS AA 1. Some sources suggest that it's actually a Schwimmer from the Batterie Stab of Obersturmführer Fritz Butschek (2./AR 1 LAH), who's Batterie was attached to Kampfgruppe Knittel. But who knows.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=61988

Eight years later we can add that the officer in the first Schwimmwagen is indeed SS-Obersturmführer Goltz, commander of the 4. (schw.) Kompanie, SS-Pz.AA1 LSSAH. Manfred Coblenz, then commander of the 2. Kompanie, identified him as such. It is my estimated guess that the famous "Peiper" Schwimmer shows members of the 3. (V.W.-) Kompanie: however, only weeks before the offensive they recieved a shipload of frech replacements from the Ersatz-Btln "Totenkopf" and it's likely that our "Peiper" perished in the senseless attacks against Stavelot. The veterans of the SS-Pz.AA1 never got familiar with their names. As for the names "Persin" and "Ochsner": I guess it's hard to confirm any name for these men as long as we don't know who Pallud's source was.

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