Fred Leuchter

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
Dan
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Post by Dan » 07 Feb 2003 18:52

All engineers performing work as engineers must be licensed _or_ working in companies in which their work is being supervised by licensed engineers.

Leuchter was unsupervised, and marketed his consulting services as an engineer.

In other words, he lied. That he wouldn't have been discovered but for his notoriety is akin to feeling sorry for a politician whose resume claims are discovered to be bogus by the news media. While it is true the deception might not have been discovered, that in no way lessens the deception
Charles, I can only assume you didn't see my post about everyone doing it to one degree or another. There is a difference between a lie that is bureaucratic, and one that is moral.

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Roberto
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Post by Roberto » 07 Feb 2003 18:59

Erik wrote:Roberto wrote:
Well, it’s up to your guru to prove that under the conditions of homicidal gassing described by witnesses, iron blues would necessarily have formed.
As expected, Roberto handles the objections gallantly. Prussian blue joins the ranks of diesel exhaust death gas, mass graves, fuel for cremations and a Hitler order as unnecessities for confirmation of a Holocaust.

Body moisture and after-hosings do to the walls of the Auschwitz gas chambers what “the liquids of putrefaction” do to the cremation of corpses from mass graves, what bone mills or stone crushers do to skeletons remaining after cremation, and what oral orders and a postulated “realm of madness” do to “get it going”.

The rest is mathematics and statistics – or remains “to your guru to prove” as opposed to just “suck it out of his thumb”.
Instead of fussing about and trying to construct your usual far-fetched parallels, how about making an attempt to demonstrate what, if anything, is supposed to be wrong with my considerations ?

Or shall I take the above as a grudging acknowledgement that your feeble previous attempts in such direction failed and you don't feel like trying again ?
Erik wrote:As expected.
What did you expect, phil ?

That I would come up with evidence and arguments against which you can offer no more than hollow blah-blah-blah ?

If so, your foresight isn't exactly amazing. Getting your nonsense taken apart - where it isn't too unintelligible to even deserve a comment - has been your standard fare ever since you started shooting the bull on this forum, after all.
Erik wrote:But Roberto supplied something quite new--- to the philosopher’s knowledge, anyway:
It's not so hard to mention something that is "new" to the knowledge of a true believer who doesn't want to know what doesn't fit into his articles of faith, is it ?
Erik wrote:The same applies to the mass graves from the murders of the Police Battalions in Eastern Europe. The mass graves described by Bruns (Riga), Gräbe(Dubno etc), von Bussche (Dubno witness, too) can contain any amount of victims, since their depths are unknown, and the proceedings described by the Jäger report of marching thousands of Jews towards those graves they had to dig themselves, can be postulated from the cooperation of a Jewish “death wish”, together with a Nazi “realm of madness”.
Roberto wrote:Not "any amount of victims", but 4-6 or 8-9 victims per cubic meter, depending on whether the bodies were tossed in at random or arranged in an “orderly” fashion and on the age and sex composition of each batch of victims. And it’s not as if the “depths are unknown” either. In many cases the measurements of the mass graves are recorded in the reports of Soviet investigation commissions, making it possible to calculate the contents of the graves[philosopher's emphasis].
Erik wrote:Chalutzim has recently supplied some horrifying photos to the thread “Last chance”, started by Dan.
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/v ... 816#133816

A mass grave or “ditch” (Bruns’ description) of the dimensions of those photos can apparently contain an enormous amount of victims.

It also has the appearance of having been dug with an excavator, and must consequently have been easy to locate afterwards.

Is this mass grave LATVIA: Liepaja December 14-16, 1941, “recorded in the reports of Soviet investigation commissions”?
Probably so, though only fragments of the 2 million pages of documents assembled by the Soviet Commission for the Investigation of German Crimes (Alan Bullock, Hitler and Stalin. Parallel Lives. Fontana Press, London, 1993, page 818) seem to have been translated by criminal justice authorities and/or historians outside Russia so far. Excerpts taken from the files of West German criminal investigations have been printed in the collection "Gott mit uns": Der deutsche Vernichtungskrieg im Osten 1939-1945, edited by Ernst Klee and Willi Dressen, Frankfurt am Main, 1989. They relate mostly to atrocities committed in Ukraine, and I think they're interesting enough to deserve a translation for this forum.

As to Liepaja in Latvia, it is/was called Libau in German, if I'm not mistaken. It is thus probable that the massacre shown in the photographs is the same that was the subject of a trial before the Hannover County Court that ended with a number of guilty verdicts on 14 October 1971, regarding the "killing of at least 3,000 Jews, Communists, Gypsies and mental patients at several places in Latvia" by Einsatzgruppe 2, SD Liepaja/Libau and Police Battalion 13:
Verfahren Lfd.Nr.760
Tatkomplex: Massenvernichtungsverbrechen durch Einsatzgruppen
Angeklagte:
Fah., Paul 1½ Jahre
Gra., Erhard 6 Jahre
Kuk., Gerhard 2 Jahre
Rei., Otto 5 Jahre
Ros., Georg 2½ Jahre
Stro., Carl-Emil 7 Jahre
Gerichtsentscheidungen:
LG Hannover 711014
BGH 740611
Tatland: Lettland
Tatort: Libau, Priekule, Aizpute, Skeden (bei Libau), Windau
Tatzeit: 4107-4203
Opfer: Juden, Geisteskranke, Zigeuner, Zivilisten
Nationalität: Lettische
Dienststelle: Einsatzgruppen EK2, Polizei SD Libau, Polizei Pol.Btl.13
Verfahrensgegenstand: Tötung von mindestens 3000 Juden, Kommunisten, Zigeunern und Geisteskranken in mehrerer Orten Lettlands
Source of quote:

http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/brd/Tatortfr.htm (click icon "760" after "Libau")
Erik wrote:Since there are survivors from this massacre, and film footage of the earlier massacre of August 1941, the mass grave(s) must be among those “investigated”?
Probably so, see above.
Erik wrote:Are there witnesses for the Enterdungsaktion, too?
Maybe so, though it was German policy to get read of such witnesses, for obvious reasons. The above mentioned book, for instance, contains translations into German of the depositions of Heinrich Chamaides and Moishe Korn before a Soviet prosecutor, regarding the obliteration of the corpses of those killed at the Janovska camp, Lemberg/Lvov, and a photograph of the bone-grinding machine they used.
Erik wrote:But your information concerning the existence of “reports of Soviet investigation commissions” would refute the allegation of revisionists that such forensic reports of mass graves do not exist.
You're not trying to tell us that you didn't expect the deliberate ignorance of your fellow "Revisionists" in regard to whatever doesn't fit into their bubble, are you ?

Charles Bunch
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Post by Charles Bunch » 07 Feb 2003 19:15

Dan wrote:
All engineers performing work as engineers must be licensed _or_ working in companies in which their work is being supervised by licensed engineers.

Leuchter was unsupervised, and marketed his consulting services as an engineer.

In other words, he lied. That he wouldn't have been discovered but for his notoriety is akin to feeling sorry for a politician whose resume claims are discovered to be bogus by the news media. While it is true the deception might not have been discovered, that in no way lessens the deception
Charles, I can only assume you didn't see my post about everyone doing it to one degree or another. There is a difference between a lie that is bureaucratic, and one that is moral.
Everyone does not do it.

And a lie is a lie.

Licensing requirements are in place to protect the public. Leuchter knew damn well he wasn't an engineer.

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Post by Erik » 07 Feb 2003 21:32

Roberto wrote:
As to b):

The study performed by Jan Markiewicz, Wojciech Gubala and Jerzy Labedz of the Institute of Forensic Research, Cracow revealed the following traces of cyanide ions (CN-) at samples taken from various buildings of the former Auschwitz-Birkenau complex (values in µg/kg, respectively the lowest and highest concentrations found in the various samples of each building analyzed):

Ruins of homicidal gas chambers
Crematorium I : 28 – 292
Crematorium II: 8 – 640
Crematorium III: 8 – 68
Crematorium IV: 12 – 500
Crematorium V: 12 – 244
Facilities for the fumigation of prisoners’ clothes
Auschwitz Block nº 1 0 – 4
Auschwitz Block nº 3 0-900
Birkenau Bath House 0-840
Dwelling Accommodations, which Were Probably Fumigated with Zyklon B Only Once
(In Connection With Typhoid Epidemic in 1942)
Auschwitz Block 3 0 – 0
Auschwitz Block 8 0 – 0
Birkenau Block 3 0 – 0

The above clearly shows that, while no concentrations of cyanide ions were detected in the samples taken from buildings not used for either delousing or homicidal gassing, the concentrations detected in samples taken from homicidal gas chambers were not much lower than those detected in samples taken from delousing facilities. This in turn indicates that both the delousing chambers and the homicidal gas chambers were exposed to significant quantities of HCN over longer periods of time. In the delousing chambers, where HCN was not absorbed by human lungs and remained in contact with the walls for up to 24 hours at a time, the concentration of cyanide ions was necessarily higher. Another factor to be considered is that the undamaged delousing facilities were not as exposed to weather conditions as the ruins of the homicidal gas chambers.
Here is from the introduction of a book called…well, see for youself!
The notion that we need to watch out for bad statistics isn't new. We've all heard people say, "You can prove anything with statistics."*** My title, Damned Lies and Statistics, comes from a famous aphorism (usually attributed to Mark Twain or Benjamin Disraeli): "There are lies, damned lies, and statistics."2 There is even a useful little book, still in print after more than forty years, called How to Lie with Statistics.[Note 3]
http://www.ucpress.edu/books/pages/9358/9358.intro.html

The “useful little book” was read once by Erik, some 20 years back. And, Erik’s memory being what is was and is, I hardly remember anything but the title and the author (Huff!). And a general “gut feeling” perhaps, that statistics takes you for a ride, after pulling your legs.
The solution to the problem of bad statistics is not to ignore all statistics, or to assume that every number is false. Some statistics are bad, but others are pretty good, and we need statistics--good statistics--to talk sensibly about social problems. The solution, then, is not to give up on statistics, but to become better judges of the numbers we encounter. We need to think critically about statistics--
....
A few years ago, the mathematician John Allen Paulos wrote Innumeracy, a short, readable book about "mathematical illiteracy."[Note 4] Too few people, he argued, are comfortable with basic mathematical principles, and this makes them poor judges of the numbers they encounter. No doubt this is one reason we have so many bad statistics. But there are other reasons, as well.
Social statistics describe society, but they are also products of our social arrangements. The people who bring social statistics to our attention have reasons for doing so; they inevitably want something, just as reporters and the other media figures who repeat and publicize statistics have their own goals. Statistics are tools, used for particular purposes. Thinking critically about statistics requires understanding their place in society.
While we may be more suspicious of statistics presented by people with whom we disagree--people who favor different political parties or have different beliefs--bad statistics are used to promote all sorts of causes.
Here is what I found on the Nizkor “leuchter-fred/prussian-blue” link :
Leuchter report is of a little scientific value. It has been proved wrong by the Polish government and other researchers. Besides, a man practising engin- eers profession without being one is a fake. Even if one is specialist with execution equipment. That one can be called as a psycopath fake. Hitler would have been glad to have similar subordinates as Leuchter seems to be.
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/l/leu ... -blue.html

The Finnish thinker extrapolates to a jerk called “Winston” (not Churchill):
Winston is a jerk. No matter how many times he has been proved wrong, he just keeps talking on like a gramophone out of order. Lies do not become into truth no matter how many times they are repeated. There are three kinds of lies: small lies, damn lies and statistics. Winston is a queer kind of a man who miraculously manages to gat all these three types of lies in one posting.
He doesn't seem to have any opinions of his own. He always quotes other people's writings, usually published in the propaganda panphlet, the IHR Newsletter, which credibility is in the same class than was Der Stuermer (an anti-Semitic Nazi paper published by J. Streicher). He does not seem to have a faintest idea, what kind of pepole the Nazis were. He seems to hail and praise totalitarianism without realizing what it really is. In my eyes he is a nerd, a coward who plays a togh guy, a sheep in wolf's clothing. He sows hatred, hoping he will get the attention he normally wwouldn't. He is a pityful mama's little boy, but he is too stupid to realize that. If Winston had been in army (not in that democratic kindergarten US army is, but in a real Prussian army, where oppressing and bullying is an everyday thing), he would not have so sunny wiev in totalitarianism.
++ Tuomas Viljanen, Lahderanta 20 A 19, SF-02720 Espoo 72 FINLAND
With so many lies and liars and all kinds and categories of them rampant on the Net and in our informations sources and their media, how do you find Truth?

Polish scientists? Are they pillars of strenght on Prussian blue?

For example, when they present
“values in µg/kg, respectively the lowest and highest concentrations found in the various samples of each building analyzed”


in a statistical manner?

Like this?
Ruins of homicidal gas chambers
Crematorium I : 28 – 292
Crematorium II: 8 – 640
Crematorium III: 8 – 68
Crematorium IV: 12 – 500
Crematorium V: 12 – 244
Facilities for the fumigation of prisoners’ clothes
Auschwitz Block nº 1 0 – 4
Auschwitz Block nº 3 0-900
Birkenau Bath House 0-840
Dwelling Accommodations, which Were Probably Fumigated with Zyklon B Only Once
(In Connection With Typhoid Epidemic in 1942)
Auschwitz Block 3 0 – 0
Auschwitz Block 8 0 – 0
Birkenau Block 3 0 – 0
“Lowest and highest concentrations” – what does that mean? The “range”, or “interval” of concentrations, but not the “distribution” along the scale of possible concentrations? (for example: 1 “zero” and nine “900” in “Auschwitz Block nº 3” from chemical analysis of ten samples? Or the other way around? 9 “zeros” and one “900”?)

What does the following qualification mean? :
The differences would have been higher if samples containing blue staining had been included, but such results would not have been telling.
“Telling” what? The truth?

The Polish scentists are aware that statistics can “lie” (see book quotes above).

In order to be “telling”, they must be “told” the truth from the outset.

Perhaps the Finnish thinker (also above) can be travestied to say:

“there are three kinds of truth-- small truths, damn truths and statistical truths”?

Nobody cares much for the first; the second must be avoided; and the third variety…??….well, must be “told”!

Why? Because the “Prussian blue” formed in a building exposed to hydrogen cyanide will remain present at high concentration while other compounds of cyanide will gradually weather away. This means that it is no surprise if buildings with blue staining have more cyanides than those without.
This is a truth of the “small” variety; i.e., “no surprise”. You can even see the “truth” with your own eyes – so, a Prussian blue “big deal”.

It also means that comparing a sample with blue stains to a sample without them is like comparing apples to oranges, because concentrations of HCN equal at the outset are likely to remain present much longer in the former than in the latter, which in turn means that conclusions drawn from concentrations of HCN residues in samples with “Prussian blue” on the one hand and samples without that staining on the other are worthless.


That's the “damn” variety of the truth.

You are damnably misled to think that those buildings with blue stains have been MORE exposed to HCN than those without blue stains, and even to the absolute “worthless” conclusion that those without blue stains have been LESS exposed to HCN, although you already KNOW that they have been “equal at the outset”.

Surely this is a pain in the *ss of all statistical truth!
Only by comparing samples without Prussian blue which were subject to similar conditions after their exposure to the substance it could be reliably determined if both had been exposed to significant quantities of HCN. This the researchers definitely established to have been the case at both the delousing and the homicidal gassing chambers and not to have been the case at other buildings of the Auschwitz-Birkenau complex.
And here is the statistical truth without any pain in the *ss!!

If you avoid Prussian blue – i.e. the “small” truth of HCN exposure – in the delousing “Facilities for the fumigation of prisoners’ clothes” you will even find spots where there is ZERO concentration of HCN!!(see statistics above!)

Such precautions are of course unnecessary in the homicidal gassing chambers, since we know that they haven’t been “subject to similar condition after their exposure to the substance”. With a bit of “affirmative action”(?), the scientists were even able to AVOID finding samples with zero concentration in the homicidal gassing chambers!

In this way it could be reliably determined that “both” had been exposed to significant quantities of HCN – and one of those places more "significant" than the other, of course.

Three places for saving lives – five for taking life away.

Leuchter’s and Rudolf’s theories have thus also failed on the second count.

Conclusion: Contrary to the assertions of both Leuchter and Rudolf, the presence of blue staining on the walls of the delousing chambers and its absence on the ruins of the homicidal gas chambers does not speak against the latter having been exposed to significant quantities of HCN.
Can we say that the “confidence interval” for homicidal gassings has been made closer by ignoring Prussian blue?

Any staticians around?

Erik
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Post by Erik » 07 Feb 2003 22:02

Roberto wrote:
Erik wrote:
But Roberto supplied something quite new--- to the philosopher’s knowledge, anyway:



It's not so hard to mention something that is "new" to the knowledge of a true believer who doesn't want to know what doesn't fit into his articles of faith, is it ?


Easy for you, but hard for Erik then!

I am as always amazed by the amount of information under you command, and flatter myself to have irritated the oyster to procure the "mother-of-pearls" around my "drivel"(quote!).

All readers at TRF are thankful for your efforts!
Or shall I take the above as a grudging acknowledgement that your feeble previous attempts in such direction failed and you don't feel like trying again ?


I'll shoot my bull and dive for the pearls around here 'til it'll make my cow come home!

Now how's THAT for being "too unintelligible to even deserve a comment"??

Regards/ Erik

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Scott Smith
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Holo-Confessionals...

Post by Scott Smith » 08 Feb 2003 07:58

Qvist wrote:
Hans wrote:But who cares? It didn't happen. Period!
Well, that's scepticism for you - at least according to the definition of some :D
Well, Qvist, I assume that you are referring to me because I don't call myself a Denier--I call myself a Skeptic. And Hans is obviously a Believer.

But I did not say that it didn't happen. I said that I am skeptical and don't consider it (referring to the thesis that a half-million were killed in a basement with insecticide) proved. I said that there were a lot of unanswered questions. I said that Leuchter went beyond his facts and oversold his credentials. I did my best not to raise red-herrings that have been discussed already.

On that point, we have discussed what engineers are (ad nauseam) with two real engineers: Sailor (now banned) and Tarpon27 (Mark). My title was once Radio/TV Broadcast Engineer; my degree is in History. So sue me. If you have more money to pay greasy-lawyers than me you will win regardless and I will sign an "agreement" admitting "guilt." You will then issue your press-release and Holo-Sites can quote from it extensively. I believe that we have established here on the forum that Leuchter clearly oversold himself but did nothing illegal or unethical.

On the point that Leuchter is an idiot, well, we will have to agree-to-disagree on that because it seems that you are out of arguments and are starting to resort to ad hominem attacks, the staple of a few others.

That Morris portrayed Leuchter in an artful but entertaining way as a fool and an "amiable doofus" hardly proves anything except to people who get their history from Hollywood.
Scott wrote: Ideally, in my opinion, a good historical film should either inspire or raise questions and stimulate debate and inquiry. So I think Morris let us down a little.
That's what I think about the film. It was brilliant art, and even Leuchter liked it. And I think my point was clear, so I don't get your problem. What was your point of starting the thread?
Scott wrote: He didn't want people (Gentiles) to leave with the impression that Leuchter had any valid points, and insured that the audience would not be asking those questions.
Well, you object to my views above. Fine. But if you can't understand that the Holocaust is promoted as a "cause," then I can't help you. Anyone is free to believe what they want. This is just MY opinion and I have stated it. Big deal.

No, I don't attend the Holo-Church. In that respect I'm a "Gentile." I'll let the "Children of God" like Xanthro (the Believers) buzz about me in their confessionals if they want. (The Holo-Cult is not limited to Jews, btw.) Morris is clearly a brilliant artist. Is he also a missionary or a confessor? Probably so, IMHO.

Will you be an ass like Xanthro and deliberately confuse my position with those of Hannover or even Zündel himself? Because I strongly support their rights to free-speech does not mean that I necessarily endorse their views. I have my own views to hash.
:)
Last edited by Scott Smith on 08 Feb 2003 09:35, edited 1 time in total.

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Scott Smith
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A Short Holo-Tour!

Post by Scott Smith » 08 Feb 2003 09:25

Hans wrote:
Qvist wrote:
Scott wrote:Good point, but there was no heating system or HCN recirculation apparatus (Kreislaufprinzip).
Really. How do you know exactly, considering most of the buildings were demolished?
Hi Qvist,

that's a simple one. He doesn't know. And there was actually a heating system for the most frequently used gas-chamber:

http://vho.org/D/rga2/Image24.jpg

Transcript:

[...]

The last point reads:

"extension of the ventilation (warm air introduction) of the crematorium II in the POW-camp, Auschwitz"

But who cares? It didn't happen. Period!
Well, in the first place, Hans, you were the one who tried to sell the theory that body-heat alone was able to rapidly raise the temperature of the Zyklon granules. And besides, the standard-story now touts these ridulous metal-mesh "Zyklon introduction columns." So the granules don't even come into contact with the bodies but only the air in the columns; and there is apparently no blower to recirculate the gas, only to exhaust it. It looks like the storytellers--desperate to keep the tapestry weaved consistently on the basis of Holo-testimonial--need to discuss things with an engineer or two.

For one thing, there is no need to heat anything other than the hot air that blows through the Zyklon pile and to recirculate the air so that it mixes rapidly and evenly inside the chamber, which minimizes the need for Zyklon. One doesn't find blue staining in fumigators that used the Kreislaufprinzip. In delousing closets such as at the Birkenau Sauna and Majdanek, there is heavy blue staining, especially streaks near the drains and even outside such as in the moats where they probably hosed things down. On the outside of one wall you can see where they probably put mattresses to aerate after gassing (delousing). The alleged gaschamber, Krema I at the main camp is also stained (based on the photos I've seen), although it has been reconstructed so it is hard to analyse forensically. But Xanthro thinks that bodies are not mostly made of water and don't start to dessicate immediately upon death (go figure). Maybe he is right that moisture has no effect on the Prussian Blue staining. I admit that I don't have all the answers.

Now, Hans, I'm not a chemist (although I did learn how to balance a simple carbon monoxide and oxygen combustion-equation in the 8th grade in Boemfuque, Idaho) and I don't know exactly what they had built at the Krema basements--but so far the story of holes chiseled ad hoc into the roofs and insecticide poured into wire-mesh columns just doesn't ring true. To say that a basement had ventilation and even heat or running water (e.g., showers for disinfection of the Sonderkommano, thus to keep them from infecting the camp with communicable disease) does not a Holocaust make. At best we have some interesting questions. Precious few answers.
:)

Here are some interesting tidbits from Holo-Sites:
March of the Living wrote: http://www.bonder.com/tour/part4.html

When we entered the camp we were taken to the disinfection room- the showers. In this room the thousands of people who were murdered at Majdanek showered before being gassed. The Germans realized that Zyklon B gas worked better on warm and moist bodies; therefore, the victims were forced to shower before they were gassed [!] and even more warm, moist air was pumped into the gas chambers via vents in the walls. [Emphasis added.]

Image

The gas chambers. Here in these rooms thousands to millions of people were slaughtered. Though the bodies have been removed, the BLUE waste product of the Zyklon B gas lingers on the concrete walls. Through the blue coat of gas, the nail scratches of the people trying to escape are clearly visible. [Emphasis added.]

Image

"The lethal pellets of the Zyklon B gas were dropped through this hole in the ceiling into the gas chamber. When the pellets were exposed to oxygen the gas was released, and 20 minutes later 600 corpses fell out of the gas chamber."

Image

From this cubicle outside the gas chambers the Nazis Soldiers watched the deadly spectacle on the other side of the wall. The black square in the picture is the peep hole through which the Germans watched the gassings, to ensure their efficiency. [Those tanks shown must be "Zyklon gas" cylinders, or maybe oxygen-cylinders to ensure the "exposure to oxygen" reaction of the Zyklon-B granules poured through the hatch, or maybe just "diesel gas" cylinders, LOL! ~Scott Smith]

Image
A Holo-Pilgrim wrote: http://vindenes.nu/album/1991/poland/index.shtml

This "shower room" was used to gas people who thought they were going to get a shower. [Why use fake showers when you can use real ones? And better station "Barry the Terrible" Hund (woof, woof) outside to guard those windows, LOL! ~Scott Smith]

Image
Really, it is not hard to find this stuff.

Best Regards,
Scott
Last edited by Scott Smith on 08 Feb 2003 18:43, edited 2 times in total.

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Hans
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Re: A Short Holo-Tour!

Post by Hans » 08 Feb 2003 12:31

Scott Smith wrote:
Hans wrote:
Qvist wrote:
Scott wrote:Good point, but there was no heating system or HCN recirculation apparatus (Kreislaufprinzip).
Really. How do you know exactly, considering most of the buildings were demolished?
Hi Qvist,

that's a simple one. He doesn't know. And there was actually a heating system for the most frequently used gas-chamber:

http://vho.org/D/rga2/Image24.jpg

Transcript:

[...]

The last point reads:

"extension of the ventilation (warm air introduction) of the crematorium II in the POW-camp, Auschwitz"

But who cares? It didn't happen. Period!
Well, in the first place, Hans, you were the one who tried to sell the theory that body-heat alone was able to rapidly raise the temperature of the Zyklon granules. And besides, the standard-story now touts these ridulous metal-mesh "Zyklon introduction columns." So the granules don't even come into contact with the bodies but only the air in the columns; and there is apparently no blower to recirculate the gas, only to exhaust it.
Really? The document I posted mentions the ventilation as "Be- und Entlüftungsanlage", which means that the air could be pumped out AND blown in. The adding "warm air introduction" in brackets suggests that warm air could be blown into the gas-chamber. Quod erat demonstrandum, I'd say!

Now, Hans, I'm not a chemist (although I did learn how to balance a simple carbon monoxide and oxygen combustion-equation in the 8th grade in Boemfuque, Idaho) and I don't know exactly what they had built at the Krema basements--but so far the story of holes chiseled ad hoc into the roofs
But the holes were not chiseled into the roof, they were planned and made before the concrete was poured.

Anyway, I think the "problems" you have with the technique and operation of the gas-chambers have certainly much less weight than the problems you produce when you assume that the evidence regarding the gas-chambers and their gas ports is false. As a matter of fact, there is plenty of independently corroborating evidence, such as (just two examples of many)

http://www.archiv.0catch.com/holocaust/ ... hacht.html

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... inventory/

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Scott Smith
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Re: A Short Holo-Tour!

Post by Scott Smith » 08 Feb 2003 12:52

Hans wrote: But the holes were not chiseled into the roof, they were planned and made before the concrete was poured.
Not with rebar exposed, as investigation has shown. I'm not an expert on the "Holes" debate so I'll have to leave that to others.
Anyway, I think the "problems" you have with the technique and operation of the gas-chambers have certainly much less weight than the problems you produce when you assume that the evidence regarding the gas-chambers and their gas ports is false.
Well, I'll let experts in German documentation and penciled forgeries discuss that, too. Besides, nobody is saying that you couldn't kill. But when you have to kill a half-a-million in a basement it becomes more complicated, just like processing the lunchtime crowd at McDonalds.
:)

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Hans
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Re: A Short Holo-Tour!

Post by Hans » 08 Feb 2003 14:25

Scott Smith wrote:
Hans wrote: But the holes were not chiseled into the roof, they were planned and made before the concrete was poured.
Not with rebar exposed, as investigation has shown.
Rudolf shows a hole with the rebar looking towards the sky, but this isn't even claimed to be one of the four holes for the gas. Those found by Mazal et al. have rebar cut cleanly and bend inwards.

No further comments on your "there was no heating system or HCN recirculation apparatus" canard?

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Scott Smith
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Re: A Short Holo-Tour!

Post by Scott Smith » 08 Feb 2003 18:53

Hans wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:
Hans wrote: But the holes were not chiseled into the roof, they were planned and made before the concrete was poured.
Not with rebar exposed, as investigation has shown.
Rudolf shows a hole with the rebar looking towards the sky, but this isn't even claimed to be one of the four holes for the gas. Those found by Mazal et al. have rebar cut cleanly and bend inwards.
I don't see why it would be cut at all if it was intentionally built in the first place with functionality in mind. But I'll have to let others handle that as I don't know that much about construction.
No further comments on your "there was no heating system or HCN recirculation apparatus" canard?

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I'm telexing my masters for advice, even now. :D

But I don't see what is a canard about it. I merely raised an objection and you have cast doubt on that.

I guess we have conclusive proof now of a half-million murdered in a basement with insecticide.
:wink:

Tarpon27
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Post by Tarpon27 » 10 Feb 2003 02:07

Scott wrote:
Some Revisionists did try an experiment on themselves with Cyanosil, the modern brand-name of Zyklon-B, but I can't vouch for its authenticity. It does pose an interesting problem without heat to warm the granules to release the gas rapidly and a recirculation system to mix the gas with the air to uniformly control the concentration.

Well, either the "experiment" was a complete hoax, or Cyanosil is hardly the product of any of the Zyklon types.

Here's a post on this subject:
I just had the chance to view on my computer a small film clip about the fumigant Zyklon B, the English translation of the German film ‘The Experiment’.:

A group of people had a couple of cans of Zyklon B manufactured according to the original specification as was used during WWII. They used a small windowless building, maybe 8ft x 6ft, a bunker with a gastight steel door. They emptied a complete can with 1 kg on a concrete ledge inside the chamber, a quantity equal to 72 time the amount as used allegedly by the SS in Auschwitz to murder the inmates. The temperature was 15C. (The temperature inside the Auschwitz morgue ranged from –5 to 17C).

Three volunteers entered the room, and the door was closed behind them. Outside a medical doctors was stationed with emergency equipment and oxygen. The volunteers were requested to knock every 5 minutes against the door to ensure that they are ok.
After 1 hour the door was opened and the volunteers came out, unharmed and seemingly allright, the doctor checked them right away, no problems.

All participants of the experiment wore masks to ensure their anonymity and avoid possible persecution.

At the ende of the clip a professional fumigator explained that it would take at least 6 hours to kill those 3 guys inside the chamber with the stated Zyklon B quantity and temperature. At 25C it would go a little faster: 3 hours.
[...]

I found it a bit questionable, so I replied:
Going by your estimation of the room size (~ 8' x 6') and assuming an 8' ceiling, converting to meters:

2.46 m (LW: long wall)
1.84 m (SW: short wall)
2.46 m (height)

2.46 m X 1.84 m X 2.46 m = 11.13 m^3 (volume of chamber)

A one kilo tin of Zyklon B was used.

1000 grams/11.13 m^3 = 89.85 g/m^3

Degesch recommended for fumigation purposes, 8-16 g/m^3, which will produce concentration levels of HCN at 7,240-14,480 ppmv ("parts per million volume").

At 89.85 g/m^3, by my calculation, the level of HCN would be 81,314 ppmv.

For humans, 300 ppmv of HCN is considered to be rapidly fatal.

Even at low temperatures, Zyklon B can easily offgas to fatal levels of HCN in less than 30 minutes, its boiling point is very low, its vapor pressure is high, and it is explosive at the levels quoted, yet these three individuals survived said exposure with no problems.

How incredible.

Regards,

Mark

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Roberto
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Post by Roberto » 10 Feb 2003 11:01

Erik wrote:Polish scientists? Are they pillars of strenght on Prussian blue?
Well, at least they are honest and objective scientists, which cannot be said of the philosopher's guru.
Erik wrote:For example, when they present
“values in µg/kg, respectively the lowest and highest concentrations found in the various samples of each building analyzed”


in a statistical manner?

Like this?
Ruins of homicidal gas chambers
Crematorium I : 28 – 292
Crematorium II: 8 – 640
Crematorium III: 8 – 68
Crematorium IV: 12 – 500
Crematorium V: 12 – 244
Facilities for the fumigation of prisoners’ clothes
Auschwitz Block nº 1 0 – 4
Auschwitz Block nº 3 0-900
Birkenau Bath House 0-840
Dwelling Accommodations, which Were Probably Fumigated with Zyklon B Only Once
(In Connection With Typhoid Epidemic in 1942)
Auschwitz Block 3 0 – 0
Auschwitz Block 8 0 – 0
Birkenau Block 3 0 – 0
In case the philosopher hasn't noticed, he isn't quoting Markiewicz et al, he's quoting my summary of their findings, which show that the range of hydrogen cyanide traces in the homicidal gas chambers is not much different from that in the delousing chambers and considerably higher than what was wound in dwelling accommodation which were probably fumigated with Zyklon B only once. The detailed report by Jan Markiewicz, Wojciech Gubala, Jerzy Labedz of the Institute of Forensic Research, Cracow, he may read under this link:

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... port.shtml
Erik wrote:What does the following qualification mean? :
The differences would have been higher if samples containing blue staining had been included, but such results would not have been telling.
Apart from the fact that exposure to HCN may, but does not necessarily result in the formation of iron blues (Rudolf himself acknowledged that the staining of the delousing chambers reflects the exception rather than the rule), comparing samples with staining to samples without staining is illegitimately comparing two different things, because iron blues are permanent and therefore bound to have a much higher concentration of cyanide ions than samples where the original concentration of such ions gradually wore off. The Cracow Institute for Forensic Research did the scientifically correct test, whereas Rudolf unscientifically compared apples with oranges to support a pre-conceived notion.
Erik wrote:“Telling” what? The truth?
The philosopher's attempts at playing with words achieve little more than revealing his insufficient dominion of the language in question and his rather bizarre vision of the truth, which for the philosopher is not what is supported by evidence and proper scientifical investigation, but what he would badly like to believe.
Erik wrote:The Polish scentists are aware that statistics can “lie” (see book quotes above).
Scientifical data collected with proper measurement methods are not exactly "statistics". If the philosopher's guru thinks the methods were inadequate and/or the data collected wrong, he'll have to convincingly demonstrate this. I would expect him to have valiantly tried, as I would expect him to have produced little more than food for true believers like the philosopher, who uncritically absorb everything their guru writes.

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Post by Qvist » 10 Feb 2003 16:17

Well, Qvist, I assume that you are referring to me because I don't call myself a Denier--I call myself a Skeptic. And Hans is obviously a Believer.

But I did not say that it didn't happen. I said that I am skeptical and don't consider it (referring to the thesis that a half-million were killed in a basement with insecticide) proved. I said that there were a lot of unanswered questions. I said that Leuchter went beyond his facts and oversold his credentials. I did my best not to raise red-herrings that have been discussed already.

On that point, we have discussed what engineers are (ad nauseam) with two real engineers: Sailor (now banned) and Tarpon27 (Mark). My title was once Radio/TV Broadcast Engineer; my degree is in History. So sue me. If you have more money to pay greasy-lawyers than me you will win regardless and I will sign an "agreement" admitting "guilt." You will then issue your press-release and Holo-Sites can quote from it extensively. I believe that we have established here on the forum that Leuchter clearly oversold himself but did nothing illegal or unethical.
Well yes, I did refer to you, since you bring it up. What historical phenomenon does not have unanswered questions, or could have if someone wanted to make sure they asked them? And what do you call someone who chooses to ignore the multiplicity of affirmative answers that DO exist, far beyond what is generally considered sufficient for establishment of historical truth, in order to be able to believe that there is any fundamental uncertainty involved? Who talks about the whole issue employing a numb self-supporting paranoid rhetoric that implies a vast conspiracy of the "establishment"? Scepticism implies intellectual integrity. Such a person is no sceptic, he either a charlatan or an idiot.


cheers

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Post by David Thompson » 10 Feb 2003 16:43

Please avoid insulting language, and let your argument make the point.

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