Germans executed for Katyn

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bf109 emil
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Re: Opening the Russian Katyn-files

Post by bf109 emil » 29 Apr 2010 12:56

This is not true. Arno Duere (or Diere) was the only one accused of being a Katyn accomplice. He recanted his absurd confession in 1954 (obviously, he wasn't hanged).
very good as the article never said he was hung :wink: , but was...received sentences of 20 years of hard labor, were turned over to the Russians and never heard of again. i.e. by his native country Germany.

also please source his confession!!... as he was found guilty by trial :wink: (obviously another Russian kangaroo court)
And this is relevant to the classified files how?
well lets see, the USSR lies through it's teeth to try and cover up the killing of 11,000 Polish POW's with the erroneous claim at Nuremberg as to be the doings of Nazi Germany in a military court deemed to incriminate accused with facts, not Russian fiction. Are we now to assume that because a classified stamp was place upon these documents, that Ruusia has turned face and became worthy as to the value and worthiness of these documents? :idea: as you say Nothing new there and agreed totally :lol:

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Re: Opening the Russian Katyn-files

Post by Sergey Romanov » 29 Apr 2010 13:18

very good as the article never said he was hung , but was...received sentences of 20 years of hard labor, were turned over to the Russians and never heard of again. i.e. by his native country German
The article incorrectly states:
Most interesting about this particular war trial is the charge. The officers were charged and hanged for having shot thousands of Polish officers in the forest of Katyn after the defeat of Poland in 1939.
As I said, only Diere was charged with being an accomplice (he confessed to helping to dig a grave). And he was not hanged (whether or not he was hung is really none of my concern).
also please source his confession as he was found guilty by trial (obviously another Russian kangaroo court)
Yes, obviously. The source is Katynskij sindrom by Yablokov, Yazhborovskaya and Parsadanova, ROSSPEN, 2001, pp. 336, 337.

I see that you do not defend your initial claim that this case has anything to do with classification or presents any sort of sensational news. Good.
well lets see, the USSR lies through it's teeth to try and cover up the killing of 11,000 Polish POW's with the erroneous claim at Nuremberg as to be the doings of Nazi Germany in a military court deemed to incriminate accused with facts, not Russian fiction. Are we now to assume that because a classified stamp was place upon these documents, that Ruusia has turned face and became worthy as to the value and worthiness of these documents?
I'm not sure what your point is. Do you just like to write a lot of meaningless text or something? We're discussing whether or not the classified files contain anything sensational. Suddenly you bring up the old, tired, non-sensational topic of Katyn at Nuremberg. How is this relevant? Go figure.

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Re: Germans executed for Katyn

Post by Panzermahn » 29 Apr 2010 15:52

Has the family of the German POWs hanged after being falsely accused of Katyn murder seek exoneration from the courts of Russian Federation like how the family of General Helmuth von Pannwitz did in the mid 90s?

It would be interesting to see how the courts of the Russian Federation would react to such requests

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Re: Germans executed for Katyn

Post by David Thompson » 29 Apr 2010 16:18

Panzermahn -- You wrote:
Has the family of the German POWs hanged after being falsely accused of Katyn murder . . .

Please read the thread more carefully. So far there's nothing to show that anyone was hanged after being falsely accused of the Katyn murders. The whole point of the thread is to get such information, if any exists.

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Re: Germans executed for Katyn

Post by Marcus » 29 Apr 2010 16:53

Several posts were moved here from the Opening the Russian Katyn-files thread.

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Re: Germans executed for Katyn

Post by bf109 emil » 29 Apr 2010 21:00

David Thompson wrote:Panzermahn -- You wrote:
Has the family of the German POWs hanged after being falsely accused of Katyn murder . . .

Please read the thread more carefully. So far there's nothing to show that anyone was hanged after being falsely accused of the Katyn murders. The whole point of the thread is to get such information, if any exists.
David you maybe right, but numerous articles do refer to people being hung after falsely accused of the Katyn massacre IMHO...here are a few sources. I will try and seek the IMT transcripts of these cases as well and have a look at if evidence might have been presented as false as I posted earlier showing Soviet response to Katyn as being tainted and false also of Katyn at IMT trials.
What makes Nikitchenko's role at Nürnberg more sinister is that in November 1945, the IMT condemned to death and hanged seven officers of the German Army: K.H. Strueffling, H. Remlinger, E. Böhom, E. Sommerfeld, H. Jannike, E. Skotki and E. Geherer for having perpetrated the Katyn Massacre. A further three German soldiers received 20 years in a Soviet Gulag and were never to be seen again. In light of the 1989 Soviet admission we know that none of these men were guilty of the Katyn Massacre, but Nikitchenko and the chief Soviet prosecutor, Roman A. Rudenko, had the power and the wit to bluff an international court and by 'legal murder' sought to paint over the remaining vestiges of Soviet complicity in the crime against Polish humanity.
http://www.catholica.com.au/andrewstake ... 110207.php
Nuremberg Trials
In November 1945, seven officers of the German Wehrmacht, K.H. Strueffling, H. Remlinger, E. Böhom, E. Sommerfeld, H. Jannike, E. Skotki and E. Geherer were tried by a Soviet court. They were falsely charged and condemned to death for their role in the Katyn massacre and were subsequently hanged. Three more were tried on the same charges; E.P. Vogel, F. Wiese, A. Diere. They received sentences of 20 years of hard labor, were turned over to the Soviets and never heard from again
http://en.allexperts.com/e/k/ka/katyn_massacre.htm#hd4
In November 1945 seven officers of the German Wehrmacht, K.H. Strueffling, H. Remlinger, E. Böhom, E. Sommerfeld, H. Jannike, E. Skotki, and E. Geherer were tried by a Soviet court. They were falsely charged and condemned to death for their role in the Katyn massacre and were subsequently hanged. Three more were tried on the same charges; E.P. Vogel, F. Wiese, and A. Diere. They received sentences of 20 years of hard labor, were turned over to the Soviets, and were never heard from again.
source from Famira, H., Germans Hanged for Katyn Retrieved June 8, 2007; Lüftl, Walter, The Katyn-Lie: Truth Will Always Emerge—When the Liars are Removed from Power
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/ent ... te_note-40
K.H. Strueffling, H. Remlinger, E. Böhom, E. Sommerfeld, H. Jannike, E. Skotki and E. Geherer were German Officers hanged after the Nurmberg Trials for the massacre of Polish Officers at Katyn; a crime which the USSR then knew, and is apparent to all was conducted by the NKVD under orders from Stalin.

These 7 officers were executed, a further 3 were handed over to the USSR and 'disappeared'. Perhaps this shows the futility of such War Crimes Trials and the ones in Rwanda or The Hague should be abandoned; where international politics is involved evidence is often manufactured. Is the International Criminal Court really going to avoid political contamination of evidence ?
from a blog but referencing these deaths or executions http://www.melaniephillips.com/articles ... 00147.html

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Re: Germans executed for Katyn

Post by bf109 emil » 29 Apr 2010 21:25

David, what is interesting in regards to this, is on Nov.6 1945 a following note regarding Katyn and the subsequent note from western prosecutors as to not push or try German Officers for this crime, yet numerous sources refer to 7 German officers being executed in regards to Katyn...

Dear Bob—
The Katyn forest murder of 925 Polish officers may present
a difficulty in the trial.
The defense may wish to make an issue of this and produce
witnesses who will testify that this murder was done by
Russians.
Could this matter be taken up by our liaison?
•Donovan 6 Nov 45


http://library2.lawschool.cornell.edu/d ... _01_13.pdf
as sourced from the Section 61.01 (Donovan memo to Jackson, 6 November 1945) archive indexhttp://library2.lawschool.cornell.edu/d ... uery=katyn

from the collection of works as a whole from this sourcehttp://library2.lawschool.cornell.edu/donovan/show.asp

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Re: Germans executed for Katyn

Post by David Thompson » 29 Apr 2010 21:49

bf109 emil -- I agree that all these articles make the claim, but they don't provide any proof or sourced reference which can be checked -- the wording, the arrangement of names and even the misspellings in the articles are so similar that they appear to just be quoting each other's stories. In fact, they all appear to have been lifted from Prof. Famira's article.

The articles which claim that the International Military Tribunal at Nuernberg convicted Germans of the Katyn forest massacre are obviously incorrect -- the persons said to have been executed weren't defendants or even witnesses in the IMT case. The contemporary newspaper accounts of the trial which I've read don't support the allegation. The 1952 US Congressional Report on Katyn doesn't mention anything of the sort, despite its obvious value in discrediting the communist regime. Nor have I seen anything in any of the recent books on the Katyn forest killings.

For Katyn and the IMT record, see:

Katyn -- the IMT spat
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=57145
The Katyn testimony of Eugen Oberhauser
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=56995
The Katyn testimony of Boris Bazilevskiy
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=56997
The Katyn testimony of Victor Il’ich Prosorovski
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=57002
The Katyn testimony of marko Antonov Markov
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=57000
The Katyn testimony of Reinhard von Eichborn
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=56993
The Katyn testimony of Friedrich Ahrens
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=56992

For more discussion on the articles, see:

Katyn, Injustice and the IMT
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=44639
Germans Hanged for Katyn
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=26603
Katyn
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=123932
A False Confession Made by a German POW under Torture?
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=18473

For other discussions about Katyn, see:

Katyn - 1944 Soviet special commission report
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=57175
Katyn -- the 1943 O'Malley report
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=57147
Katyn – 1952 US Congressional findings
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=57050
Katyn -- Maps
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=57045
Katyn mass murder question
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=45481
The Soviet war crimes against Poland: Katyn 1940
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=18124
Document related to the Polish POWs in USSR 1940
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=28090
US report about Katyn delivered to Poland?
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=19866
KATYN - an un-punished war crime !
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=15072
Soviet Responsibility at Katyn: pro and con
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=56940
Perpetrators of the massacre in Katyn forest
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=66696
Katyn Massacre Documents
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?p=710962

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bf109 emil
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Re: Germans executed for Katyn

Post by bf109 emil » 29 Apr 2010 22:50

David, thank you and also for the work providing these links.

Again as reading what is printed to what is sourced in various realms of history are often take as face value of being legit and touted as such.

The time you went through to link these topics regarding this thread is appreciated by myself both for the effort you endured and the ability of myself and others to perhaps learn.

Thank You
Jim Snowden (bf109 emil)

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Re: Germans executed for Katyn

Post by bf109 emil » 30 Apr 2010 00:05

David from one of your sources listed above, their is a note in the 1952 judicial inquiry, which although does not belong here might be prevalent as to Russian documents classified, or yet to be found state the following...

from 2252 THE KATYN FOREST MASSACRE
1. During the fighting between September 17 and the beginning of October,
1939, about 181,000 Polish Soldiers were taken prisoners by the Soviet Forces,
anions who were about 10,000 Officers.

2. These Officers, with certain civilians of distinction and several thousand
members of the Polish Police were placed in three large Prison Camps as
follows :

(a) Kozielsk in the Province of Smolensk.

(b) Starobielsk in the Ukraine.

(c) Ostashkov in the Province of Kalinin.

3. Early in 1940 all these prisoners were photographed, their fingerprints
taken and lists prepared. The Camp Authorities informed the prisoners that
these measures were taken with the object of sending all these prisoners to
their homes and families and "liquidating" the Camps.

4. Early in April, 1940, prisoners from Kozielsk were sent away in batches
of two or three hundred, mostly in the direction of Smolensk.
would anyone know if the number of Polish prisoners photographed and fingerprinted refers to the 10,000 officers or the entire 181,000 Polish POW's?

either way, with either 10,000 photo's and fingerprints or 181,000 photo's and fingerprints, the number seem large and the task of storing these must have resulted in some Soviet archive or locale...quoted from http://www.archive.org/stream/katynfore ... t_djvu.txt

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Re: Germans executed for Katyn

Post by David Thompson » 30 Apr 2010 01:33

Thanks very much for that link, bf109 emil! Though I go to archive.org fairly frequently, I didn't know they had posted so many volumes of the hearings.

For interested readers:

The Katyn Forest Massacre : hearings before the Select Committee to Conduct an Investigation of the Facts, Evidence and Circumstances of the Katyn Forest Massacre, Eighty-second Congress, first[-second] session, on investigation of the murder of thousands of Polish officers in the Katyn Forest near Smolensk, Russia .. (1952)
vol. 1
http://www.archive.org/details/katynforestmassa01unit
vol. 2 – not available
vol. 3
http://www.archive.org/details/katynforestmassa03unit
vol. 4
http://www.archive.org/details/katynforestmassa04unit
vol. 5
http://www.archive.org/details/katynforestmassa05unit
vol. 6
http://www.archive.org/details/katynforestmassa06unit
vol. 7
http://www.archive.org/details/katynforestmassa07unit

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Re: Germans executed for Katyn

Post by bf109 emil » 30 Apr 2010 08:43

unsure if this maybe prevalent, but there was a CIA study also done on Katyn massacres and can be read here.https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for- ... .html#rft2

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Re: Germans executed for Katyn

Post by Sergey Romanov » 30 Apr 2010 10:53

> either way, with either 10,000 photo's and fingerprints or 181,000 photo's and fingerprints, the number seem large and the task of storing these must have resulted in some Soviet archive or locale

As is well-known to those who studied Katyn even superficially, the personal files of the murdered were burned. In fact we have orders given for the destruction of the documents and acts about the destruction.

I would recommend the recent documentary collection by Lebedeva, Ciencala and Materski from the "Annals of Communism" series. (It's even available online at pirate sites...) The Madden hearings and CIA studies are not a substitute for primary sources and up-to-date commentary by professional historians.

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Re: Opening the Russian Katyn-files

Post by Hecht » 30 Apr 2010 15:45

Sergey Romanov wrote:This is not true. Arno Duere (or Diere) was the only one accused of being a Katyn accomplice. He recanted his absurd confession in 1954 (obviously, he wasn't hanged).
I wonder why Duere confessed to being at Katyn.. :roll:

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Re: Germans executed for Katyn

Post by Sergey Romanov » 30 Apr 2010 16:05

> I wonder why Duere confessed to being at Katyn..

Um. That's a strange remark. You really don't know how a person can be made to confess to anything? Really? I would think that after numerous Stalinist show trials this wouldn't be an issue.

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