Death Van Trials

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Death Van Trials

Post by David Thompson » 05 Feb 2003 18:36

During WWII, the Nazis used death vans (also called "gassing vans") to murder an assortment of persons in various countries. The topic has been frequently discussed on a number of threads in this forum.

Although a number of documents and eyewitness accounts have been posted, some of the contributors to this forum have questioned whether anyone was ever killed in a gas van, and have questioned whether the gas vans worked at all.

In my opinion, these arguments seem frivolous in light of the fact that there have been at least 27 separate trials in West German courts in more than 10 different cities during the thirty-year period 1950-1980 of defendants accused of participating in mass murder by using gassing vans (not all of the West German trials are on-line as yet). Most of the defendants in these trials were convicted; occasionally some were acquitted. The suggestion of the posters denying that people were killed by gas vans seems preposterous to me -- it requires the readers believe that a generation of West German jurists in a variety of courts were all defrauded by bogus evidence or participated in some massive hoax and cover-up. These are the trials I was able to find on the JuNSV website at:

http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/inhaltsverzeichnis.htm

Verfahren Lfd.Nr.231
Tatkomplex: NS-Gewaltverbrechen in Haftstätten
Angeklagte:
Göhler, Ferdinand lebenslänglich + 1 Jahr
Gerichtsentscheidungen:
LG Stuttgart 500815 [Ks 31/49]
LG Stuttgart 491108 [Ks 31/49]
OLG Stuttgart 500310 [Ss 17/50]
OLG Stuttgart 510313 [Ss 9/51]
Tatland: Polen
Tatort: HS ZAL Bornhagen
Tatzeit: 4110
Opfer: Juden
Nationalität: Polnische
Dienststelle: Zivilverwaltung Landratsamt Kalisch
Verfahrensgegenstand: Teilnahme an der Tötung von mindestens 700 Juden, vermutlich durch sog. Gaswagen, sowie Einzeltötungen und Misshandlung von Juden bei dieser 'Aussiedlungsaktion'
Veröffentlicht in Justiz und NS-Verbrechen Band VII

Verfahren Lfd.Nr.298
Tatkomplex: NS-Gewaltverbrechen in Haftstätten
Angeklagte:
Rübe, Adolf lebenslänglich + 15 Jahre
Gerichtsentscheidungen:
LG Karlsruhe 511107
LG Karlsruhe 491215
OLG Stuttgart 510629
BGH 520718
Tatland: GUS
Tatort: Minsk
Tatzeit: 42-43
Opfer: Juden
Nationalität: Sowjetische, Deutsche
Dienststelle: Polizei Kripo Minsk
Verfahrensgegenstand: Einzeltötungen von Männern, Frauen und Kindern des Minsker Ghettos auf Befehl wie auf eigenen Entschluss. Ferner Teilnahme an der Massentötung deutscher und sowjetischer Juden durch Erschiessen und Vergasen in einem 'Gaswagen'
Veröffentlicht in Justiz und NS-Verbrechen Band IX

Verfahren Lfd.Nr.362
Tatkomplex: NS-Gewaltverbrechen in Haftstätten, Andere Massenvernichtungsverbrechen
Angeklagte:
Schäfer, Emanuel 6½ Jahre
Gerichtsentscheidungen:
LG Köln 530620
Tatland: Jugoslawien
Tatort: Belgrad, HS KL Semlin
Tatzeit: 420206, 420813, 4203-4207
Opfer: Juden, Häftlinge, Widerstandskämpfer
Nationalität: Jugoslawische
Dienststelle: Polizei Sipo Serbien
Verfahrensgegenstand: Befehl zur Erschiessung eines serbischen Zollbeamten wegen Verdachts des Mordes an zwei Volksdeutschen sowie einer verhafteten kommunistischen Widerstandskämpferin durch den BdS Serbien. Der Angeklagte hat ferner an der mit 'Gaswagen' ausgeführten Tötung von etwa 6000 jüdischen Häftlingen des Judenlagers Semlin (bei Belgrad) durch ein Einsatzkommando des Reichssicherheitshauptamts mitgewirkt
Veröffentlicht in Justiz und NS-Verbrechen Band XI

Verfahren Lfd.Nr.526
Tatkomplex: Andere Massenvernichtungsverbrechen, Massenvernichtungsverbrechen durch Einsatzgruppen
Angeklagte:
E., Erich Urteil vom BGH aufgehoben, dann Verfahren eingestellt
H., Ludwig Freispruch
Kl., Werner Freispruch
K., Hans Freispruch + Verfahren eingestellt
Ku., Siegfried Freispruch
P., Erich Freispruch
Gerichtsentscheidungen:
LG Karlsruhe 611220
BGH 630528
Tatland: Lettland, Litauen, GUS
Tatort: Kowno, Dünaburg, Rositten, Kiew, Uman, Gut Michalowka (bei Kiew), HS AEL Kiew
Tatzeit: 4106-4107, 4201-4309
Opfer: Häftlinge, Juden, Zivilisten
Nationalität: Litauische, Lettische, Sowjetische
Dienststelle: Einsatzgruppen EK1b, Polizei Sipo Kiew, Polizei Sipo Uman
Verfahrensgegenstand: Massenerschiessungen litauischer und lettischer Juden zu Beginn des Russlandfeldzuges durch das Einsatzkommando 1b. Massen- und Einzeltötungen jüdischer und anderer sowjetischer Zivilisten durch Vergasen in 'Gaswagen' und Erschiessen durch die Sipo Kiew
Veröffentlicht in Justiz und NS-Verbrechen Band XVIII

Verfahren Lfd.Nr.552
Tatkomplex: Kriegsverbrechen, Euthanasie, Massenvernichtungsverbrechen durch Einsatzgruppen, Massenvernichtungsverbrechen in Lagern, Andere Massenvernichtungsverbrechen
Angeklagte:
Dalheimer, Karl Robert 4 Jahre
Harder, Arthur Alexander Urteil vom BGH aufgehoben; ein späteres Urteil konnte nicht ermittelt werden
Heuser, Georg Albert Wilhelm 15 Jahre
Merbach, Friedrich 7 Jahre
Schlegel, Rudolf 8 Jahre
Stark, Franz lebenslänglich
Wilke, Artur Fritz 10 Jahre
Gerichtsentscheidungen:
LG Koblenz 630521
Tatland: GUS
Tatort: Minsk, HS KL Gut Trostinez, Koidanow, Rakow, Slonim, Sluzk
Tatzeit: 41-4406
Opfer: Juden, Zivilisten, Geisteskranke
Nationalität: Sowjetische, Deutsche, Oesterreichische
Dienststelle: Polizei Sipo Minsk, Sonderkommando 1005
Verfahrensgegenstand: Erschiessung, Vergasung im 'Gaswagen' sowie Lebendverbrennung tausender sowjetischer sowie nach Minsk deportierter westeuropäischer Juden, von Zigeunern, Geisteskranken, anderen sowjetischen Zivilisten und von sowjetischen Agentinnen in den Jahren 1941-1944 im Bereich des KdS/BdS Minsk. Repressalienerschiessungen, u.a. Exekution von 300 Männern, Frauen und Kindern aus Minsk nach dem Attentat auf Generalkommissar Kube
Veröffentlicht in Justiz und NS-Verbrechen Band XIX

Verfahren Lfd.Nr.560
Tatkomplex: Massenvernichtungsverbrechen durch Einsatzgruppen, Andere Massenvernichtungsverbrechen
Angeklagte:
Brünnert, Reinhold 4 Jahre
Schumacher, Hans 4 Jahre
Gerichtsentscheidungen:
LG Karlsruhe 631213
Tatland: GUS
Tatort: Kiew, Uman
Tatzeit: 4201-4309
Opfer: Häftlinge, Juden, Zivilisten
Nationalität: Sowjetische
Dienststelle: Polizei Sipo Kiew, Polizei Sipo Uman, Einsatzgruppen EK5
Verfahrensgegenstand: Massen- und Einzeltötungen jüdischer und anderer sowjetischer Zivilisten durch Vergasen in 'Gaswagen' und Erschiessen
Veröffentlicht in Justiz und NS-Verbrechen Band XIX

Verfahren Lfd.Nr.594
Tatkomplex: Massenvernichtungsverbrechen in Lagern
Angeklagte:
B., Heinrich Walter von Strafe abgesehen (§47 MStGB)
Burmeister, Walter 13 Jahre
Häfele, Alois 13 Jahre
Heinl, Karl 7 Jahre
H., Wilhelm 13½ Monate
Laabs, Gustav 13 Jahre
M., Friedrich 13½ Monate
Me., Anton von Strafe abgesehen (§47 MStGB)
Möbius, Kurt 8 Jahre
Sch., Wilhelm 13½ Monate
S., Alexander von Strafe abgesehen (§47 MStGB)
Gerichtsentscheidungen:
LG Bonn 650723
LG Bonn 630330
BGH 641125
BGH 660803
Tatland: Polen
Tatort: HS KL Chelmno
Tatzeit: 4112-4303, 4406-4408
Opfer: Juden, Zigeuner
Nationalität: Deutsche, Französische, Oesterreichische, Polnische, Tschechoslowakische
Dienststelle: Haftstättenpersonal KL Chelmno
Verfahrensgegenstand: Tötung von insgesamt mindestens 150.000 jüdischen Männern, Frauen und Kindern sowie von etwa 5000 Zigeunern, die im Rahmen mehrerer 'Aussiedlungsaktionen' aus dem Ghetto und der näheren Umgebung von Lodz ins KL Chelmno verschleppt und in 'Gaswagen' vernichtet wurden
Veröffentlicht in Justiz und NS-Verbrechen Band XXI

Verfahren Lfd.Nr.601
Tatkomplex: Kriegsverbrechen, Euthanasie, Massenvernichtungsverbrechen durch Einsatzgruppen, Massenvernichtungsverbrechen in Lagern, Andere Massenvernichtungsverbrechen
Angeklagte:
Feder, Johannes Hugo Otto 4½ Jahre
Kaul, Wilhelm 4½ Jahre
Oswald, Jakob Herbert 4 Jahre
Toll, Eberhard Richard Ernst von 4½ Jahre
Gerichtsentscheidungen:
LG Koblenz 651110
BGH 650119
Tatland: GUS
Tatort: Minsk, HS KL Gut Trostinez, Koidanow, Rakow, Slonim, Sluzk
Tatzeit: 41-4406
Opfer: Juden, Zivilisten, Geisteskranke
Nationalität: Sowjetische, Deutsche, Oesterreichische
Dienststelle: Polizei Sipo Minsk, Sonderkommando 1005
Verfahrensgegenstand: Erschiessung, Vergasung im 'Gaswagen' sowie Lebendverbrennung tausender sowjetischer sowie nach Minsk deportierter westeuropäischer Juden, von Zigeunern, Geisteskranken, anderen sowjetischen Zivilisten und von sowjetischen Agentinnen in den Jahren 1941-1944 im Bereich des KdS/BdS Minsk. Repressalienerschiessungen, u.a. Exekution von 300 Männern, Frauen und Kindern aus Minsk nach dem Attentat auf Generalkommissar Kube
Veröffentlicht in Justiz und NS-Verbrechen Band XXII

Verfahren Lfd.Nr.603
Tatkomplex: Massenvernichtungsverbrechen in Lagern
Angeklagte:
F., Gustav Wilhelm 13½ Monate
Gerichtsentscheidungen:
LG Kiel 651126
Tatland: Polen
Tatort: HS KL Chelmno
Tatzeit: 4203-4303
Opfer: Juden
Nationalität: Deutsche, Französische, Oesterreichische, Polnische, Tschechoslowakische
Dienststelle: Haftstättenpersonal KL Chelmno
Verfahrensgegenstand: Tötung von insgesamt mindestens 145.000 jüdischen Männern, Frauen und Kindern, die im Rahmen mehrerer 'Aussiedlungsaktionen' aus dem Ghetto und der näheren Umgebung von Lodz ins KL Chelmno verschleppt und in 'Gaswagen' vernichtet wurden
Veröffentlicht in Justiz und NS-Verbrechen Band XXII

Verfahren Lfd.Nr.606
Tatkomplex: Massenvernichtungsverbrechen durch Einsatzgruppen
Angeklagte:
Gröver, Theodor 5½ Jahre
Helfsgott, Walther 4 Jahre 3 Monate
Mohr, Robert 8 Jahre
P., Walter Freispruch
Gerichtsentscheidungen:
LG Wuppertal 651230
BGH 641211
BGH 670524
LG Wuppertal 671213
Tatland: GUS
Tatort: Awdejewka, Berdjansk, Dnjepropetrowsk, Gorlowka, Grischinow, Igrin, Makejewka, Schachty, Stalino
Tatzeit: 4110-4301
Opfer: Juden, Zivilisten, Geisteskranke
Nationalität: Sowjetische
Dienststelle: Einsatzgruppen EK6
Verfahrensgegenstand: Erschiessung und Vergasung mittels 'Gaswagen' von tausenden jüdischen Männern, Frauen und Kindern. Erschiessung kommunistischer Funktionäre, anderer Zivilisten sowie von 800 Insassen der Irrenanstalt Igrin bei Dnjepropetrowsk
Veröffentlicht in Justiz und NS-Verbrechen Band XXII

Verfahren Lfd.Nr.624
Tatkomplex: Massenvernichtungsverbrechen durch Einsatzgruppen
Angeklagte:
Har., Adolf Josef Freispruch
Gerichtsentscheidungen:
LG Frankfurt/M. 660312
BGH 680911
Tatland: GUS
Tatort: Mogilew, Monostyratschtschina, Dowsk, unbekannt (Raum Smolensk), unbekannt (Raum Mogilew)
Tatzeit: 42
Opfer: Juden, Häftlinge
Nationalität: Sowjetische
Dienststelle: Einsatzgruppen EK8
Verfahrensgegenstand: Massen- und Einzeltötungen durch Erschiessen und Vergasen mittels 'Gaswagen' . Durchführung von 'Gefängnisräumungen' . Erhängung von zwei Angehörigen des beim EK8 tätigen jüdischen Arbeitskommandos
Veröffentlicht in Justiz und NS-Verbrechen Band XXIII

Verfahren Lfd.Nr.632
Tatkomplex: Andere Massenvernichtungsverbrechen
Angeklagte:
Pra., Friedrich 7 Jahre [probably identifiable with Friedrich Pradel]
Wen., Harry 3 Jahre [probably identifiable with Harry Wentritt]
Gerichtsentscheidungen:
LG Hannover 660607
BGH 670221
Tatland: Deutschland
Tatort: Berlin
Tatzeit: 41-42
Opfer: Juden
Nationalität: Deutsche, Jugoslawische, Sowjetische
Dienststelle: RSHA Referat IID3A
Verfahrensgegenstand: Bau von 'Gaswagen', von denen mindestens sechs in ausländischen Orten eingesetzt und zur Tötung von über 3800 Juden benutzt wurden
Veröffentlicht in Justiz und NS-Verbrechen Band XXIII

Verfahren Lfd.Nr.658
Tatkomplex: Euthanasie, Andere Massenvernichtungsverbrechen
Angeklagte:
Widmann, Dr. Albert 6½ Jahre
Gerichtsentscheidungen:
LG Stuttgart 670915
Tatland: Deutschland, GUS
Tatort: Minsk, Mogilew, Berlin
Tatzeit: 4109, 42
Opfer: Geisteskranke, Juden
Nationalität: Sowjetische
Dienststelle: RSHA Kriminaltechnisches Institut
Verfahrensgegenstand: Sprengung eines Bunkers bei Minsk, in dem Geisteskranke eingeschlossen worden waren sowie Vergasung von Geisteskranken in Mogilew. Technische Überprüfung der vom RSHA gebauten 'Gaswagen' (Berlin, 1942)
Veröffentlichung in Vorbereitung

Verfahren Lfd.Nr.679
Tatkomplex: Massenvernichtungsverbrechen in Lagern
Angeklagte:
Eng., Edgar von Strafe abgesehen (§47 MStGB) + Freispruch
Gerichtsentscheidungen:
LG Stuttgart 680611
Tatland: Jugoslawien
Tatort: HS KL Semlin
Tatzeit: 4203-4206
Opfer: Juden, Häftlinge
Nationalität: Serbische
Dienststelle: Polizei Sipo Belgrad
Verfahrensgegenstand: Tötung der etwa 6000 jüdischen Häftlinge des KL Semlin mittels 'Gaswagen' . Erschiessung - nach Beendigung der 'Gaswagenaktion' - der serbischen Strafgefangenen, die die getöteten Juden beerdigen mussten
Veröffentlichung in Vorbereitung

Verfahren Lfd.Nr.700
Tatkomplex: Andere Massenvernichtungsverbrechen
Angeklagte:
And., Herbert 2½ Jahre [probably identifiable with SS-Obersturmfuehrer Herbert Andorfer]
Gerichtsentscheidungen:
LG Dortmund 690116
Tatland: Jugoslawien
Tatort: HS KL Semlin
Tatzeit: 4203-4206
Opfer: Juden
Nationalität: Serbische
Dienststelle: Polizei Sipo Belgrad
Verfahrensgegenstand: Tötung der etwa 6000 jüdischen Häftlinge des KL Semlin mittels 'Gaswagen'
Veröffentlichung in Vorbereitung

Verfahren Lfd.Nr.702
Tatkomplex: Massenvernichtungsverbrechen durch Einsatzgruppen
Angeklagte:
Ha., Hans Karl Albert 5½ Jahre
Ric., Heinz Richard Hugo 7 Jahre
Gerichtsentscheidungen:
LG Kiel 690411
Tatland: GUS
Tatort: Mogilew
Tatzeit: 41-42
Opfer: Juden
Nationalität: Sowjetische
Dienststelle: Einsatzgruppen EK8
Verfahrensgegenstand: Vergasung von Juden mittels 'Gaswagen'
Veröffentlichung in Vorbereitung

Verfahren Lfd.Nr.703
Tatkomplex: Massenvernichtungsverbrechen durch Einsatzgruppen
Angeklagte:
Chri., Theodor Ludwig Freispruch
Fin., Wilhelm Freispruch
Kre., Karl Ernst Robert Freispruch
Gerichtsentscheidungen:
LG Darmstadt 690418
BGH 700610
Tatland: GUS
Tatort: Kiew, Charkow, Kursk, Ssumy, Buryn Konotop, HuPA Ssapogowo (bei Kursk), HS Gefängnis Kursk
Tatzeit: 41-42
Opfer: Juden, Häftlinge, Zivilisten, Geisteskranke
Nationalität: Sowjetische, Ungarische
Dienststelle: Einsatzgruppen SK4a
Verfahrensgegenstand: Massentötung von Juden durch Vergasen mittels 'Gaswagen' . Erschiessung geisteskranker Frauen der Irrenanstalt Ssapogowo, von Häftlingen aus dem Gefängnis Kursk, von Kommunisten sowie von in Arbeitsbataillonen der ungarischen Armee dienstverpflichteten Juden
Veröffentlichung in Vorbereitung

Verfahren Lfd.Nr.720
Tatkomplex: Massenvernichtungsverbrechen durch Einsatzgruppen
Angeklagte:
Schl., Heinz Joachim Freispruch
Gerichtsentscheidungen:
LG Kiel 691128
Tatland: GUS
Tatort: Mogilew, Minsk
Tatzeit: 41-42
Opfer: Juden
Nationalität: Deutsche, Sowjetische
Dienststelle: Einsatzgruppen EK8
Verfahrensgegenstand: Vergasung in 'Gaswagen' von mindestens 2500 sowjetischen Juden in Mogilew und von zirka 50 deutschen Juden in Minsk
Veröffentlichung in Vorbereitung

Verfahren Lfd.Nr.750
Tatkomplex: Massenvernichtungsverbrechen durch Einsatzgruppen, NS-Gewaltverbrechen in Haftstätten
Angeklagte:
Stro., Karl Freispruch
Gerichtsentscheidungen:
LG Frankfurt/M. 710319
Tatland: Polen, GUS
Tatort: Nowogrodek, Baranowicze, Minsk, Mogilew
Tatzeit: 4107-4210
Opfer: Juden, Häftlinge, Geisteskranke
Nationalität: Polnische, Sowjetische
Dienststelle: Einsatzgruppen EK8
Verfahrensgegenstand: Massenerschiessung mehrerer tausend Juden in 5 Teilaktionen. Vergasung mittels 'Gaswagen' von Häftlingen des Gefängnisses Mogilew bei der monatlichen 'Gefängnisräumung' sowie von Geisteskranken einer Irrenanstalt bei Mogilew
Veröffentlichung in Vorbereitung

Verfahren Lfd.Nr.765
Tatkomplex: Massenvernichtungsverbrechen durch Einsatzgruppen
Angeklagte:
Fin., Wilhelm 3 Jahre 1 Monat
Gerichtsentscheidungen:
LG Darmstadt 711223
Tatland: GUS
Tatort: Kiew, Charkow
Tatzeit: 41-42
Opfer: Juden, Zivilisten
Nationalität: Sowjetische
Dienststelle: Einsatzgruppen SK4a
Verfahrensgegenstand: Massen- und Einzeltötungen von Juden durch Erschiessen und Vergasen mittels 'Gaswagen'
Veröffentlichung in Vorbereitung

Verfahren Lfd.Nr.769
Tatkomplex: Massenvernichtungsverbrechen durch Einsatzgruppen
Angeklagte:
Fin., Karl 4½ Jahre
Lip., Theodor 3 Jahre
Schu., Siegfried 5 Jahre
Gerichtsentscheidungen:
LG München I 720322
Tatland: GUS
Tatort: Ananjew, Chotin, Czernowitz, Kertsch, Mogilew-Podolsk, Mostok, Nowo Spurjewka, Skadowsk, Woinka, Wossnessensk, unbekannt (bei Ananjew)
Tatzeit: 410706-43
Opfer: Juden
Nationalität: Sowjetische
Dienststelle: Einsatzgruppen EK10b
Verfahrensgegenstand: Massentötungen von Juden durch Erschiessen und Vergasen mittels 'Gaswagen' in mehreren Orten auf dem Marschweg des EK 10b von Czernowitz über Cherson und Feodosia in den Kaukasus. Erschiessung von Juden, die während eines Fussmarsches von Mogilew-Podolsk nach Rumänien, wohin sie abgeschoben werden sollten, vor Erschöpfung zurückblieben
Veröffentlichung in Vorbereitung

Verfahren Lfd.Nr.777
Tatkomplex: Massenvernichtungsverbrechen durch Einsatzgruppen
Angeklagte:
Gö., Dr.med. Heinrich 4 Jahre
Sev., Friedrich 4 Jahre
Tri., Kurt 4 Jahre
Gerichtsentscheidungen:
LG München I 720714
Tatland: GUS
Tatort: Taganrog, Jeissk
Tatzeit: 411026, 421010
Opfer: Juden, Zivilisten
Nationalität: Sowjetische
Dienststelle: Einsatzgruppen EK10a
Verfahrensgegenstand: Vergasung mittels 'Gaswagen' von ca. 200 Juden in Taganrog sowie von ca. 214 Kindern des Kinderheims in Jeissk
Veröffentlichung in Vorbereitung

Verfahren Lfd.Nr.795
Tatkomplex: Andere Massenvernichtungsverbrechen
Angeklagte:
Ha., Dr. Ludwig Hermann Karl 12 Jahre
Wip., Thomas von Strafe abgesehen (§47 MStGB)
Gerichtsentscheidungen:
LG Hamburg 730605
BGH 750304
Tatland: Polen
Tatort: Warschau
Tatzeit: 42-44
Opfer: Juden
Nationalität: Polnische
Dienststelle: Polizei Sipo Warschau
Verfahrensgegenstand: Erschiessungen, Vergasungen (mittels 'Gaswagen') und Selektion von mehreren hundert Juden im Pawiak-Gefängnis
Veröffentlichung in Vorbereitung

Verfahren Lfd.Nr.807
Tatkomplex: Massenvernichtungsverbrechen durch Einsatzgruppen
Angeklagte:
Esc., Rudi 5 Jahre
Schlu., Johannes 4½ Jahre
Win., Heinrich 3 Jahre
Gerichtsentscheidungen:
LG München I 740329
Tatland: GUS
Tatort: Tighina, Eupatoria, Odessa, Tscherkessk
Tatzeit: 4108-4210
Opfer: Juden
Nationalität: Sowjetische
Dienststelle: Einsatzgruppen EK11b
Verfahrensgegenstand: Erschiessung und Vergasung (mittels 'Gaswagen') von Juden auf der Krim und im Kaukasus
Veröffentlichung in Vorbereitung

Verfahren Lfd.Nr.809
Tatkomplex: Kriegsverbrechen
Angeklagte:
Rie., Heinz Gerhard Günther Freispruch
Gerichtsentscheidungen:
LG Kiel 740614
BGH 750415
Tatland: GUS
Tatort: Mogilew
Tatzeit: 43-44
Opfer: Widerstandskämpfer
Nationalität: Sowjetische
Dienststelle: Polizei Geheime Feldpolizei Gruppe 507
Verfahrensgegenstand: Vergasung von mindestens 7 Partisanen mittels 'Gaswagen'
Veröffentlichung in Vorbereitung

Verfahren Lfd.Nr.816
Tatkomplex: Massenvernichtungsverbrechen durch Einsatzgruppen
Angeklagte:
Dre., Max 5 Jahre
Keh., Walter 4 Jahre
Gerichtsentscheidungen:
LG München I 741115
Tatland: GUS
Tatort: Babschincy, Dubossary, Bergdorf (bei Dubossary), Glücksthal, Neudorf (bei Dubossary), Simferopol, Stawropol
Tatzeit: 4108-4212
Opfer: Juden
Nationalität: Sowjetische
Dienststelle: Einsatzgruppen EK12a, Einsatzgruppen EK12b
Verfahrensgegenstand: Einzel-, Gruppen- und Massenerschiessungen von Juden auf dem Vormarsch der EK 12a und EK 12b von Jampol über Dubossary nach Simferopol. Vergasung mittels 'Gaswagen' von Juden, die den Massenerschiessungen in Simferopol und Stawropol entkommen, dann aber aufgespürt worden waren
Veröffentlichung in Vorbereitung

Verfahren Lfd.Nr.864
Tatkomplex: Kriegsverbrechen
Angeklagte:
Chri., Dr. Kurt 10 Jahre
Gerichtsentscheidungen:
LG München I 801219
BGH 821111
Tatland: GUS
Tatort: Krasnodar, Marjanskaja
Tatzeit: 4208-4302
Opfer: Zivilisten, Widerstandskämpfer
Nationalität: Sowjetische
Dienststelle: Einsatzgruppen EK10a
Verfahrensgegenstand: Tötung in Krasnodar inhaftierter Partisanen, Angehöriger von Partisanen - darunter zweier Kinder - und partisanenverdächtiger Zivilisten durch Vergasen mittels 'Gaswagen' . Verhaftung von etwa 60 Partisanen, Partisanenverdächtigen und Kommunisten aus dem Dorfe Marjanskaja sowie Erschiessung eines Teiles der Festgenommen am Kubanfluss
Veröffentlichung in Vorbereitung

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Scott Smith
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Kraft durch Greuelpropaganda...

Post by Scott Smith » 06 Feb 2003 02:24

What is preposterous is recognizing as historically-factual material that was hashed (or not even) at previous political trials. The first two Gas-Van trials were held in the Soviet Union in 1943 in the aftermath of the Katyn investigation. And the outcome was as expected: Germany guilty.

And after Nuremberg, do you really expect anyone to challenge the very premise of these shibboleths in postwar political trials?

Perhaps the Believers in these fantastic-contrivances should give us some verifiable specifics or hard evidence. Otherwise, the story is just so much gas. Anybody can make atrocity-propaganda claims. Anybody can prove witchcraft when Belief is political.

And if one court recognizes the legal "facts" of previous trials there is nothing much for the Defense to say. John Demjanjuk was convicted and sentenced to death for gassing thousands with diesel exhaust. Only one problem was that it was possible to prove on appeal that the evidence on his identity had been forged. He could not have challenged the basis of the charges themselves.

That courts are influenced by political considerations is no big surprise. No conspiracy-theory is needed further than discrediting the Nazis (which had been a popular movement in Germany). This propaganda benefits the modern Bundestablishment and its own PR. The story also benefits the cause of Zionism and Internationalism. Big Bill Clinton could not find much of a case in the national interest to intervene in the Balkans except with respect to preventing "Holocausts." (But the mass-murder in Rwanda didn't even make the radar screen.) Similarly, the Bushes had to appeal to the image of Saddam-as-Hitler in order to get popular support for their interventions.
:)

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Post by Dan » 06 Feb 2003 02:28

David, which regular posters have denied that some people were killed in the backs of some German vehicles with gas?

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Post by Xanthro » 06 Feb 2003 02:31

Dan wrote:David, which regular posters have denied that some people were killed in the backs of some German vehicles with gas?
The one that posted just before you. ;)

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Post by Dan » 06 Feb 2003 03:19

Didn't he say that some of the accounts were technically unlikely?

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Post by Scott Smith » 06 Feb 2003 03:27

Dan wrote:Didn't he say that some of the accounts were technically unlikely?
In particular, the Soviet trials where the vans were both called diesels and referred to as Saurer vans (which are diesels). Unnecessary and improbable or incompatible detail is a feature of lies.
:)

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Post by David Thompson » 06 Feb 2003 03:35

Dan -- You asked: "which regular posters have denied that some people were killed in the backs of some German vehicles with gas?"

(1) The expressions that I used were "some of the contributors to this forum" and "The suggestion of the posters denying that people were killed by gas vans seems preposterous to me."

(2) I did not name any particular posters, "regular" or not, who made this suggestion because I was interested in discussing the issue -- the fact that it is unlikely that a generation of West German jurists, presiding over a variety of courts in their own country, were all defrauded by bogus evidence or participated in some massive hoax and cover-up.

(3) This approach avoids distractions from the issue to be discussed, such as that posed by your question "which regular posters have denied that some people were killed in the backs of some German vehicles with gas?" -- Or did you think my starting premise was mistaken, and that no one on this forum has ever "questioned whether anyone was ever killed in a gas van," or "questioned whether the gas vans worked at all," and that no poster has ever suggested anything that could be reasonably taken as a denial that people were killed by Nazi gas vans?

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Post by Dan » 06 Feb 2003 04:48

Well, as far as number two, some defence lawyers are unable to defend their clients, because the lawyers will go to jail if they question the findings of the various trials.

So, you don't need to bring in conspiricy, just silly laws which disadvantage those accused.

For example, in France it is still illegal to deny Soap Libel under the Gayssot law.

I think that the point that the trials used evidence which can't legally be contested is strong.

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Post by David Thompson » 06 Feb 2003 04:53

Scott -- You said: "Perhaps the believers in these fantastic contrivances should give us some verifiable specifics or hard evidence. Otherwise the story is just so much gas. Anybody can make atrocity-propaganda claims. Anybody can prove witchcraft when Belief is political.

And if one court recognizes the legal "facts" of previous trials there is nothing much for the Defense to say. John Demjanjuk was convicted and sentenced to death for gassing thousands with diesel exhaust. Only one problem was it was possible to prove on appeal that the evidence on his identity was forged. He could not have challenged the basis of the charges themselves.

That courts are influenced by political considerations is no big surprise. No conspiracy-theory is needed further than discrediting the Nazis (which was a popular movement in Germany). This propaganda benefits the modern Bundestablishment and its own PR. The story also benefits the cause of Zionism and Internationalism. Big Bill Clinton could not find much of a case in the national interest to intervene in the Balkans except with respect to preventing "Holocausts." (But the mass-murder in Rwanda didn't even make the radar screen.) Similarly, the Bushes had to appeal to the image of Saddam as Hitler in order to get support for their interventions."

As for the statement, "No conspiracy-theory is needed further than discrediting the Nazis (which was a popular movement in Germany). This propaganda benefits the modern Bundestablishment and its own PR," and your witch-trial analogies, what do you make of all those acquittals in West German war crimes trials? How do you think that could have happened? How many witches have you read about that were acquitted?

Why would all those judges in the local and federal courts in West Germany participate in a gross and fraudulent injustice on their own people? Why would the West German courts acquit some accused war crimes defendants (even some of the accused in the death van trials), but convict other death van defendants?

And what do Bill Clinton and the Bushes have to do with local trials in West Germany during 1950-1980?

Don't you think that there is a simpler explanation here -- namely, that you and the expert or two you've cited are mistaken on this issue?
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Post by David Thompson » 06 Feb 2003 04:56

Dan -- You said: "some defence lawyers are unable to defend their clients, because the lawyers will go to jail if they question the findings of the various trials.

So, you don't need to bring in conspiricy, just silly laws which disadvantage those accused.

For example, in France it is still illegal to deny Soap Libel under the Gayssot law.

I think that the point that the trials used evidence which can't legally be contested is strong."

Was such a law in effect in West Germany during the 1950-1980 period when the death van trials were held? Aren't the "anti-denial" laws more recent than that? The French Fabius-Gayssot law dates from 1990, and the German statutes on defaming the dead weren't applied to holocaust matters until 1994 or so, as best as I can tell. Can you give me an example of some "silly laws which disadvantage those accused" in West German proceedings back then? Do you know of a law that was in effect in West Germany which would have sent a lawyer to jail if he questioned the findings of a previous trial, when the previous trial was based on different facts, different dates, a different court and a different location where the crime was supposedly committed?

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Post by Dan » 06 Feb 2003 06:18

No, I can't. You are the expert in legal matters. Perhaps between 1950 and 1990 laws were just. But before those dates, and after, people have been persectuted for telling the truth. I would say the burden of proof is on those known to have engaged in perjury and murder. That is not to say all the trials were bogus, just that the fact that verdicts were recorded doesn't make them right.

We need full, internationally open, and exhaustive forensic investigations of these things, but they are all to often illegal.

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Post by David Thompson » 06 Feb 2003 07:26

Dan -- I don't consider myself an expert in legal matters. I'm just trying to discuss an historical issue. After thinking about your argument, I starting wondering whether there were holocaust denial laws back then, so I got on the internet, did a search, and found that there weren't any when those trials were held.

I've heard a lot of criticism directed against West German courts, particularly in the 1960-1980 period, for being too lenient toward Nazi war crimes. From researching the JuNSV website, I am aware that there were a very large number of acquittals of defendants in West German war crimes proceedings. I have almost never heard of any criticism of the West German courts for being unfair to defendants in such trials. I have absolutely never heard of a defendant in those trials being unable to challenge the evidence against him. Because of that, I have no reason to believe that those West German trials weren't fair.

As for the idea that "burden of proof is on those known to have engaged in perjury and murder," the usual rule is that the burden is on the person making the accusation -- otherwise, defendants in the war crimes trials would have fared even worse. If your reference is to trials held in the former communist nations, it is appropriate to ask if the prosecution met their burden of proof. Courts with rudimentary or primitive procedural safeguards for a defendant can nevertheless try to achieve a just result, as many of the courts of the United States did in the 18th, 19th and early 20th centuries, or they can be a travesty of justice.

As for your last point, I don't think that there is any reason to legitimately fear having the evidence and testimony at those trials published, or allowing people to ask questions and get answers. Obstacles to that process only raise more questions, and suggest that there is something to hide.
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Post by Dan » 06 Feb 2003 07:38

David Irving was forced to pay 18,000 dollars for saying that the gas chambers shown to tourists at Auschwitz were a fake, and that they were built after the war.

This was in West Germany.

What do you think of this?

I take it that you and I agree that some of the British Military Tribunals resulted in the murder of inocent people, and the French laws are unfair, and the Russians may very well have murdered people.

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Post by David Thompson » 06 Feb 2003 08:24

Dan -- Although they are off-topic, I'll answer your questions.

I don't want to criticize West Germany or France for their holocaust denial laws -- that's for their citizens and legislatures to decide. As for the United States, I don't think that our republic needs something like that, for the reasons expressed in my last post.

You said, "I take it that you and I agree that some of the British Military Tribunals resulted in the murder of inocent people, and the French laws are unfair, and the Russians may very well have murdered people."

How's this:

I agree that the evidence against Karl Weinbacher in the Zyklon B case was insufficient to warrant the death penalty. I think it is arguable as to whether he was innocent of the charge against him, but the evidence seemed slender to me. There may be other cases like that involving post-WWII British military tribunals, but I'm not aware of them.

I wouldn't write my congressman and ask him to vote for a domestic version of the Fabius-Gayssot law. I don't know enough about the fairness of the other laws of France to express an opinion on them.

I believe that the former Soviet Union had a well-deserved reputation for having frequently killed people, and cruelly punished or oppressed many more, on a scale that is truly shocking.

Now, Let's get back on topic.

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Post by Scott Smith » 06 Feb 2003 12:01

David Thompson wrote:Scott -- You said: "Perhaps the believers in these fantastic contrivances should give us some verifiable specifics or hard evidence. Otherwise the story is just so much gas. Anybody can make atrocity-propaganda claims. Anybody can prove witchcraft when Belief is political.

And if one court recognizes the legal "facts" of previous trials there is nothing much for the Defense to say. John Demjanjuk was convicted and sentenced to death for gassing thousands with diesel exhaust. Only one problem was it was possible to prove on appeal that the evidence on his identity was forged. He could not have challenged the basis of the charges themselves.

That courts are influenced by political considerations is no big surprise. No conspiracy-theory is needed further than discrediting the Nazis (which was a popular movement in Germany). This propaganda benefits the modern Bundestablishment and its own PR. The story also benefits the cause of Zionism and Internationalism. Big Bill Clinton could not find much of a case in the national interest to intervene in the Balkans except with respect to preventing "Holocausts." (But the mass-murder in Rwanda didn't even make the radar screen.) Similarly, the Bushes had to appeal to the image of Saddam as Hitler in order to get support for their interventions."

As for the statement, "No conspiracy-theory is needed further than discrediting the Nazis (which was a popular movement in Germany). This propaganda benefits the modern Bundestablishment and its own PR," and your witch-trial analogies, what do you make of all those acquittals in West German war crimes trials? How do you think that could have happened? How many witches have you read about that were acquitted?
Actually, most were not convicted because their accusers were often unsavory and unpopular figures themselves. But once public-catharsis had somehow been reached, that the Church and State had done battle against Satan, the mass-paranoia magically melted away. Heresy is a little similar but different than witchcraft; we are talking about meticulous legal procedures that are still used today. It is easy to abuse the law, especially if the cause is just and the accused are unpopular.
Why would all those judges in the local and federal courts in West Germany participate in a gross and fraudulent injustice on their own people? Why would the West German courts acquit some accused war crimes defendants (even some of the accused in the death van trials), but convict other death van defendants?
Not their own people, "Nazis." And some of those people probably were vile characters, some treated too leniently considering the gravity of the accusations. Anyway, it is permissible to acquit some of the "witches" in a witchcraft trial, especially if they kneel before the authority of the court. Every defendant (except the stupid) plays the supplicant, even if he considers himself innocent. The trick is to do it believably. This is a version of plea-bargaining and turning state's evidence. See, if you are the Lord Inquisitor and impose draconian methods without leaving an "out" for the accused (especially the cream of society) you risk fighting the entire "House" of the accused, who will otherwise just roll over and pay a little fine for "involuntary" sodomy with the Devil and proceed to tell-all and about-all. Hail Mary, justice be done. With the remaining dregs of society waiting for the hangman because the bondsman couldn't be paid or a juicier fish couldn't be outted, you throw them the book. And as long as there are enough hangings and burnings that the people feel-good, and afraid of the Devil and the witches, then you are doing good. But when accusations snowballed at Salem and too many prominent people were accused, the plug was pulled on the whole farce. It is not that anybody is conspiring to do anything but what they feel is right, using the thumbscrews (literally or figuratively) and the letter of the law to stamp-out witches, heretics and Nazis, to save Democracy and Christendom from itself.
And what do Bill Clinton and the Bushes have to do with local trials in West Germany during 1950-1980?
All modern politicians use the Holocaust in their rhetoric, not just in Germany, and Interventionist Internationalism was what was "won" by the Nuremberg trials, as it discredits "Isolationism" as an ostrich or xenophobic mentality in times when the whole world is being gassed by baddies. What "Nuremberg" really undermines is not "Crimes Against Humanity" (whatever that is) but the idea of national-sovereignty and ultimately freedom-itself by turning the world into a medieval crusade of petty political-correctness. In Germany, the one thing the Bundestablishment seeks to combat is that Germans are NOT Nazis in the world's perception; this is even more true after reunification (which was and is controversial considering their War-Guilt and Holocaust past). And with the increase of Hollywood Holo-propaganda worldwide to support American Interventionism and justify Zionist excesses, paleo-Germans are increasingly BAD in pop-culture, so the Bundestablishment and the plastic-spoon generation Germans have to be more vigilant against "Nazis," "neo-Nazis," and "their Revisionist apologists" to compensate.
Don't you think that there is a simpler explanation here -- namely, that you and the expert or two you've cited are mistaken on this issue?
The diesel "mistake" is too commonly used to have been a simple mistake in engine identification. It was picked because most people would surmise that it is a more wicked and surefire form of execution than gasoline-engine exhaust, which everybody knows is deadly. And therefore the lie is exposed! Furthermore, I do not trust the veracity of the Nuremberg-process one whit, from the Globaloney of the New Deal trust, to the British Greuelpropagandists of the World Wars, to the soapy-Katyn justice of the Reds.
David wrote:
Dan wrote:So, you don't need to bring in conspiricy, just silly laws which disadvantage those accused.

For example, in France it is still illegal to deny Soap Libel under the Gayssot law.

I think that the point that the trials used evidence which can't legally be contested is strong.
Was such a law in effect in West Germany during the 1950-1980 period when the death van trials were held? Aren't the "anti-denial" laws more recent than that? The French Fabius-Gayssot law dates from 1990, and the German statutes on defaming the dead weren't applied to holocaust matters until 1994 or so, as best as I can tell.
The farther removed from 1945 the more severe the anti-Heresy laws have to be because there are fewer devils and heretics (Nazis and un-Reeducated Germans) alive, and the population itself is not old enough to remember the fear of occupation and Reeducation where they were "tutored in Democracy" by bayonet and spoonfed German guilt--first by being forced to watch the ubiquitous Concentration Camp propaganda-films, which might just have easily been shot in Civil War prison camps of either side if there had been cinema then. Germans are positively schizoid when it comes to their Nazi past. So the thumbscrews are OUT but the Thoughtcrimes laws are IN, and the enforcers have to be ever-vigilant against the Deniers and blasphemers.

I never said it wasn't a complex Groupthink phenomenon. But regardless of Nazi guilt, the Thoughtcrimes laws cannot be suffered by freethinking people. It is a vital manifestation of totalitarian-liberalism, a killer of true democratic values. True peace is ultimately forged on mutual respect and tolerance--not force, fear, and ideological bigotry.

Once the first stone is cast all the rocks automatically fly.
:)

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