Brittish-Soviet secret pact?

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amateur
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Brittish-Soviet secret pact?

Post by amateur » 22 Oct 2009 09:57

Hello forum-members!

I've stumbled on pieces of information that assert that there was a secret agreement between the Anglo-French block and the Stalin's administration of the USSR about a coordinated allied attack plan against Germany already in October 1939. It has been mentioned in connection with the allegedly existed Soviet European invasion plan called operation "Groza" (Thunderstorm).

It allegedly included some quite intriguing "side-effects" besides giving a coordinated military strike on Germany. Unfortunately, the only evidence that this kind of plan may have existed (that I have seen) is a translation of a letter by Ribbentrop and Göring to Finnish marshal Mannerheim dated March 7, 1940.

The gist of the letter is as follows:

The German Government informs Finland that there is an anti-Germany secret English-Russian attack plan, which includes invasion to the Baltic States and Scandinavia. The German Government are not willing to wait for this plan's implementation, and will not allow the combat activities to be taken to the territory of Germany. Germany will take preventive measures to avoid English-French invasion and occupation of Norway and Denmark. Should the Soviet forces attack Finnish and Swedish coasts from the Gulf of Bothnia, Germany would immediately occupy Norway and Denmark. In this case the German air force would also attack those areas of Finland, which would be used to launch the Soviet offensive. If Finland desired military assistance from Germany, she should request such support from German Goverment. Singned by Hermann Göring and J. von Ribbentrop.

The letter had allegedly the photocopy of the original agreement signed by Stalin and Churchill on October 15, 1939 as an appendix. The main attack on Germany was supposed to be launched from Scandinavian countries. The joint operation was supposed to start in the middle of May 1940. It was never put in action as intended because of Germany’s occupation of Denmark and Norway in April.

Does anybody have more information on this so-called "Stalin-Churchill pact"? If this plan existed, then the western allies made quite similar agreement to the Molotov- Ribbentrop Pact’s additional secret protocols agreeing on invasion of neutral states.

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phylo_roadking
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Re: Brittish-Soviet secret pact?

Post by phylo_roadking » 22 Oct 2009 15:13

The letter had allegedly the photocopy of the original agreement signed by Stalin and Churchill on October 15, 1939 as an appendix.
Leaving aside the use of the word "photocopy" to describe the document appended - how were the GERMANS....who after all were using it to pressurize Mannerhaeim...supposed to have got their hands on this most-secret of documents, probably (if it existed) securely locked in the deepest darkest and dustiest safes in Downing Street and the Kremlin??? The Abwehr was good....but not THAT good...

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Re: Brittish-Soviet secret pact?

Post by Art » 22 Oct 2009 15:23

The "agreement" is undoubtedly a fake. I would be interested for my own reasons to know what is the source and from where the reference to "Groza" plan appears, so I will be grateful if you provide this information.

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Re: Brittish-Soviet secret pact?

Post by John T » 22 Oct 2009 16:22

Art wrote:The "agreement" is undoubtedly a fake. I would be interested for my own reasons to know what is the source and from where the reference to "Groza" plan appears, so I will be grateful if you provide this information.
could be from Erkki Hautamäki, who used German wartime propaganda, for more info see:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=82123


The opposite seems more relevant, a more serious evaluation of British Soviet relation can be found at
http://www.amazon.com/Operation-Pike-19 ... 0313313687

Cheers
/John T.

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Re: Brittish-Soviet secret pact?

Post by phylo_roadking » 22 Oct 2009 18:20

...and of course Ironside's intention to come to grips with "Hitler's ally" via Finland in late 1939...

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Re: Brittish-Soviet secret pact?

Post by Juha Tompuri » 22 Oct 2009 19:51

John T wrote:could be from Erkki Hautamäki
Very likely.
A Controversial Book
I am not sure what to make of this. I gather the book has earned alot of ridicule and been dismissed by many historians. Nonetheless, I thought it might spark an interesting discussion. (Article courtesy of ProKarelia)

Educational councelor, ret. Major Erkki Hautamäki has written an interesting book, "Finland in the eye of the storm". It brings forth many things from the time of the last wars, things that no one has known or things that no one has spoken of – the people have not wanted to tell about them.

The book changes the historiography of the war times in a significant way. - Up to now there has only been a hypothesis, since we have only had secondary evidence of the documents that describe the operations and their consequences, says Hautamäki.

The book was published first in Swedish with the name ’Finland i stormens öga’. It is based on the contents of the so-called file S-32 of Marshal Mannerheim and is copied from there by the Marshal’s secret agent Vilho Tahvanainen, who worked with him during the war.

- File S-32 has been destroyed or hidden almost completely under Kekkonen’s regime. The book is going to be translated into many languages. Within a year another part is going to be published. This second part will also include more detailed argumentation about the happenings of the first book.

Vilho Tahvanainen was Marshal C.G.E. Mannerheim’s trusted special agent since the 1930s till the death of Marshal in 1951. Tahvanainen familiarized himself with the matters of the secret files that Marshal recorded in the file with the sign S-32. Tahvanainen’s book called ’Special task’, aroused deep suspicion and strong condemnation, when it was published in 1970.

The Swedish version of Erkki Hautamäki’s book was examined by the scientists of University of Uppsala, Sweden. The introduction was co-written by Colonel, M.A. Erkki Nordberg. He is the chief of the educational department at the main headquarters of the Finnish army. Professor Kent Zetterberg, a teacher of the Swedish defense academy, was the second writer.

Erkki Hautamäki was born in 1930. In the 1960s he worked in a special task of the Finnish army headquarters. Between 1970 and 1990 he was supervisor of the Vuokatti sports academy. He is an internationally known sports leader and a critic and trendsetter of the Kekkonen era.

The central hypotheses concerning and changing the writing of the history of Finland are as based on his book:

- Churchill and Stalin negotiated the starting of co-operation in a war of many fronts against Germany since April 1939. In July it was agreed that when Germany and the Soviet Union attack Poland, the declaration of war of the western allies would be focused only against German actions.

- On the 23rd of August 1939 Stalin and Hitler signed the so called Molotov-Ribbentrop agreement. Its secret extra protocol included the so-called concept of the sphere of interest that did not mean permission to conquer the Baltic states and Finland. It meant instead the right to demand strategic bases in case of war.

- On the 15th of October 1939 an agreement was signed between Stalin and Churchill (the allied forces). The core of it was the plan to destroy Germany both militarily and economically. Churchill’s old plan regarding the Scandinavian operation was also accepted.

- The winter war of Finland did not stop because of Stalin’s fear of a possible threat of western allies attacking to defend Finland. It ended when Hitler sent Stalin an edict that Stalin shall cease the acts of war against Finland, or Germany will bombard Soviet troops and fight for Finland unbidden. The Marshal received from Hitler information about this edict and copies of the plan of the western allies and Stalin concerning Finland.

- If this would have happened, the allied forces would have conquered Norway and Sweden in the name of Finnish aid. Simultaneously the Soviet Union would have conquered Finland. Finland would have drawn into war and Scandinavia would have been a front against Germany. Churchill and the allied forces thus sold Finland to the Russians.

- Stalin played simultaneously an ally of Germany and the western allies. His goal was to get the western allies and Germany to wear themselves down in their fighting against each other. After this he would conquer a weakened Europe.

- Stalin purchased first the newest mechanical weaponry from Germany. After it he obtained from the USA an immense amount of war material against Germany (and Finland) as Lend-lease aid. No final account of these possessions has yet been made.

- The unconditional denial of passage for allied forces through Sweden partially saved Finland. The agreement of Churchill and Stalin allowed the conquering of Scandinavia and the Baltic countries. A section was added that the conquered areas should be given their independence back after peace had come.

- When the general courier of Stalin was transporting the strategic war plans from Churchill, the air force of Germany compelled the airplane to land on 9 Feb. 1940. During the examination of the air crew and the passengers, all documents were photographed. Hitler received exact information about the attack plans on several fronts of the allied forces. He thus started a preventive attack plan in Norway. Stalin did not know that the plans had been revealed.

- The Marshal’s so called scabbard order of the day on 9 July 1941 was born after Hitler’s edict to unambiguously express the goals of Finnish warfare, or otherwise Germany starts taking Finland under its government. Marshal Mannerheim was before the continuation war compelled to accept Stalin’s demands that were secretly introduced to him: Finland shall not advance to Leningrad or over Lake Syväri and shall not disturb the railroad leading from Sorkka.

Where did you get motivation to write this book, Erkki Hautamäki?

- I was studying Vilho Tahvanainen’s book, but I left it without doing anything for 20 years. I think it was worth it to scrutinize, and my personal feeling was that an innocent man should get rehabilitated. Why weren’t these things investigated during 50 years instead of being thrown away? The more I delved into international source literature and documents, the more I found information leading the balance in favor of things and writings in File S-32, not against them.

What is the latest news that supports the hypotheses?

- Holding the archives secret comes to mind. File S-32 has become secret or is destroyed. There are Finnish scientists who have been in Moscow, but all Stalin’s and NKVD’s archives are closed. No one is admitted to investigate the documents.

- The last airplane that left Berlin included Hitler’s secret archives. The Americans shot down the plane and nothing was left, everything disappeared. It was said that Hitler turned pale when he heard of this and said: “There went all the possibilities to witness that the things are otherwise than the winners will insist”.

- I have all the material of Tahvanainen at my disposal and I have read the file S-32’s documents many times. In the archives of the Marshal there is only a small part of the papers and they contain nothing new. After this I started to hunt material and fill out the mosaic.

- There were white blotches that could not be true. More data must to be found. I started to find data in the form of copies. I had a team in Sweden. I travelled in Russia, Germany, Estonia, purchased literature, discussed with people. I have found literature that is almost unknown in Finland.

- Under the negotiations of the Paris treaty the Finns were not allowed to present any details of File S-32. Churchill’s archives are closed at least until 2017. In Nürnberg the Germans were not permitted to render anything of the Churchill-Stalin materials, nor was that information given to the prosecution.

- The main prosecutor of Great Britain made in 1985 a statement that we blamed completely falsely Germany for these things and now we have as a threat the impossible communistic, bolshevist Europe, which we perhaps may not be able to control. We rejected Hitler’s desperate wishes for peace. There were altogether nine of them and they were not introduced, because they were considered to be nonsense and a fool’s ideas.

Why did the western states want to destroy Germany?

- If one looks at the theses of Churchill from the year 1934, no suspects remain left. The answer of Churchill and Roosevelt was approximately this: Germany is much more dangerous and that is why Stalin was chosen as an ally. The question was of both militaristic and economic threat. The economic aspect was more dangerous to England and France.

- In March 1940 Sumner Welles visited Italy, Germany, France and England. The persons he met said openly that they were compelled to war, no peace propositions are accepted. Similar orders were also given to Poland. Germany was driven into a compulsory situation. The terms of World War I were already shocking.

What would it have happened if the Scandinavia plan of the allies would have come true?

- Nothing would have been left of Finland. It would have been a total collapse. According to the Marshal’s opinion the occupation of Denmark and Norway made by Germany – as regrettable as these phenomena locally were – saved partially Finland. Sweden saved Finland by denying the passage.

- It is not right to blame Swedes, for they saw the overall situation. King Gustaf V received personally the assurance from Hitler that Germany has no claims, if Sweden stays neutral and delivers ore as before. The King also got knowledge of the plans of the allies.

What about Karelia?

- The boundaries of 1939 are a completely clear issue, they need to be returned. There is no ambiguity, and there should not exist any obstacles internationally all the way to the UN. The Marshal was compelled to agree to Stalin’s demands that we do not go to Leningrad or over Lake Syväri.

- The Marshal told Zhdanov of the Supervision Commission that Finland had fulfilled the agreement with Stalin. Then Zhdanov had to exit with red cheeks and return to Moscow to ask, what Stalin had agreed. Then the noose started to swing for Zhdanov.

Does history change?

- History has to change. The truth will appear undisputedly”, affirms Erkki Hautamäki, the writer of this very interesting book. He is also ready to discuss these issues with anybody.
http://swordandsea.blogspot.com/2009_09_01_archive.html


Regards, Juha

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Re: Brittish-Soviet secret pact?

Post by John T » 22 Oct 2009 20:45

Juha Tompuri wrote:
John T wrote:could be from Erkki Hautamäki
Very likely.
A Controversial Book
I am not sure what to make of this. I gather the book has earned alot of ridicule and been dismissed by many historians. Nonetheless, I thought it might spark an interesting discussion. (Article courtesy of ProKarelia)
....


- When the general courier of Stalin was transporting the strategic war plans from Churchill, the air force of Germany compelled the airplane to land on 9 Feb. 1940. During the examination of the air crew and the passengers, all documents were photographed. Hitler received exact information about the attack plans on several fronts of the allied forces. He thus started a preventive attack plan in Norway. Stalin did not know that the plans had been revealed.

....
- History has to change. The truth will appear undisputedly”, affirms Erkki Hautamäki, the writer of this very interesting book. He is also ready to discuss these issues with anybody.
http://swordandsea.blogspot.com/2009_09_01_archive.html
So the Plan was "found" by the Germans during the war and delivered to Finland.
Something makes me believe there is a slight chance that the documents where copyrighted Goebbels & Göring rather than Churchill and Stalin

Cheers
/John T.

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Re: Brittish-Soviet secret pact?

Post by amateur » 23 Oct 2009 10:02

Thanks for you contribution. Special thanks to Juha.
could be from Erkki Hautamäki
Yes, that's right. The sources I have, refer to Hautamäki and Mannerheim's archive composed by special agent Vilhau Tahvanainen.
I would be interested for my own reasons to know what is the source and from where the reference to "Groza" plan appears
The connection to Operation Groza plan has been made by an Estonian researcher as an assumption, I guess. The site itself is here: http://www.kool.ee/?5879 You probably cant read it:-) Well the logic behind it is that if the Brittish - Soviet plan existed then it matched well with the Soviet Groza plan's objectives.

However, this assumption is not well-grounded. That's why I raised the topic her.

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Re: Brittish-Soviet secret pact?

Post by Art » 23 Oct 2009 11:22

Thank you, Juha and John.
amateur wrote: The connection to Operation Groza plan has been made by an Estonian researcher as an assumption, I guess.
Well, operation "Groza" is a popular urban legend in post-perestroyka literature. The legend seem to originate from the following excerpt:
"22 June. About 1 a.m. a cipher message was recieved from Moscow with an order to alert troopsfor the case of the German attack expected from the morning.
About 2.00 - 2.30 a.m. an analogous order was transmitted using cipher to the armies, units of the fortified regions were ordered to immediately occupy fortifications. By a "Groza" signal the "red packet", containing the plan of the state border defense, was put into action."
From the journal of operations of the West Front, June 1941
It's the only case of appearence of "Groza" codeword in known documents.

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Re: Brittish-Soviet secret pact?

Post by amateur » 23 Oct 2009 12:20

Well, operation "Groza" is a popular urban legend in post-perestroyka literature.
That may very well be an urban legend. But, as you know it much better than I do, many people (not only Suvorov) believe based on indirect evidence that this kind of plan existed and was basically a strategic [counter-]offensive plan for Soviet Union in case of armed conflict with Germany or a threat of armed conflict. Was it titled "Groza" or something else, is not really important. The important question is was USSR preparing to attack Germany (and countries on the way) or was she unexpectedly attaked herself as the traditional "pre-perestroika" literature claimes.

But I swear to god, I don't want to start another dispute on this topic here, since it has been demonstrated many times that it leads nowhere, unless some new information is found to prove either side's claims and statements. I really don't. I was just hoping to get some explanation to the Hautamäki's implications.
By a "Groza" signal the "red packet", containing the plan of the state border defense, was put into action."
From the journal of operations of the West Front, June 1941
Thanks for that. It's interesting piece of information.

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Re: Brittish-Soviet secret pact?

Post by redcoat » 24 Oct 2009 00:29

- On the 15th of October 1939 an agreement was signed between Stalin and Churchill (the allied forces).
- When the general courier of Stalin was transporting the strategic war plans from Churchill, the air force of Germany compelled the airplane to land on 9 Feb. 1940. During the examination of the air crew and the passengers, all documents were photographed. Hitler received exact information about the attack plans on several fronts of the allied forces. He thus started a preventive attack plan in Norway. Stalin did not know that the plans had been revealed.
I suppose everyone is aware that Churchill was only a cabinet minister in 1939, he didn't become Prime Minister until May 1940 :roll:

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Re: Brittish-Soviet secret pact?

Post by Juha Tompuri » 24 Oct 2009 08:43

redcoat wrote:I suppose everyone is aware that Churchill was only a cabinet minister in 1939, he didn't become Prime Minister until May 1940 :roll:
Everybody except E. Hautamäki, the person who invented the story.

Regards, Juha

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