Comparative air force performance & a/c production

Discussions on every day life in the Weimar Republic, pre-anschluss Austria, Third Reich and the occupied territories. Hosted by Vikki.
User avatar
Guaporense
Banned
Posts: 1866
Joined: 07 Oct 2009 02:35
Location: USA

Comparative air force performance & a/c production

Post by Guaporense » 20 Feb 2010 22:38

Split off from http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 4&t=161189



Also, Germany apparently had air superiority over the eastern front even in 1944. And airsuperiority is a good measure of material superiority.

In 1944 Germany lost only 2406 combat aircraft in the eastern front, while performing nearly 380,000 sorties, a loss rate of only 0,7%(1). While the Russians lost about 26 thousand (2). A ratio of loss of 10 to 1 was about the same as in 1941.

Since fighters only made up about 13% of all aircraft in the eastern front in 1944 (400 out of 3000 (1)). Most of those 380,000 sorties were made by ground attack/bomber aircraft, so the germans must have bombed heavily the Russians. But it didn't help to reduce their fast rate of advance.

Also, German total combat aircraft losses in 1944 were only 12,000 (1) out of a total production of 35,600. While soviet combat aircraft losses were 26,000 out of a production of 33,000.

Also, German fighter losses in the first half of 1944 were a little more than 4,000 aircraft (3), apparently their losses in the second half of the year were not much larger, annual fighter losses must have been around 8,000-9,000. While production was nearly 30,000. Why this discrepancy? Because they didn't have the pilots and the fuel to use the aircraft. Hence, Germany lost airsuperiority in the western front due to lack of pilots and fuel, not lack of industrial capacity to produce the equipment needed to maintaim it.

(1) http://www.lesbutler.ip3.co.uk/jg26/thtrlosses.htm
(2) Krivosheev
(3) Strategy for Defeat: The Luftwaffe 1933-1945
"In tactics, as in strategy, superiority in numbers is the most common element of victory." - Carl von Clausewitz

User avatar
phylo_roadking
Member
Posts: 17488
Joined: 30 Apr 2006 23:31
Location: Belfast

Re: German vs. Allied war-making potential

Post by phylo_roadking » 21 Feb 2010 00:42

Since fighters only made up about 13% of all aircraft in the eastern front in 1944 (400 out of 3000 (1)). Most of those 380,000 sorties were made by ground attack/bomber aircraft, so the germans must have bombed heavily the Russians.
That's a non-sequitor. The fact that fighters only constituted 13% of all aircraft doesn't in any way directly/automatically map over to their sortie rate :wink: In fact - with Stukas etc. requiring increasingly heavier fighter escort for instance, it could be a case that the LW's fighters were sortie'ing more often per aircraft than its bombers :wink:
Also, German total combat aircraft losses in 1944 were only 12,000 (1) out of a total production of 35,600.


Is that "total production" figure total combat aircraft produced.....or total of ALL types? :wink:

RichTO90
Member
Posts: 4238
Joined: 22 Dec 2003 18:03

Re: German vs. Allied war-making potential

Post by RichTO90 » 21 Feb 2010 00:59

phylo_roadking wrote:Is that "total production" figure total combat aircraft produced.....or total of ALL types? :wink:
It doesn't really matter, since the losses quoted are only combat losses in aerial combat... :roll:

They were actually 12,631, of which about 9,700 were lost in what amounts to "the west".

Losses West/East

1E Fighter 6,818/972
2E Fighter 275/185
N Fighter 1,063/94
GA 345/1,237
Bombers 1,217/425
Total 9,718/2,913

User avatar
phylo_roadking
Member
Posts: 17488
Joined: 30 Apr 2006 23:31
Location: Belfast

Re: German vs. Allied war-making potential

Post by phylo_roadking » 21 Feb 2010 01:18

It doesn't really matter, since the losses quoted are only combat losses in aerial combat...
Well, our friend is claiming that the LW enjoyed air superiority in the East....in a year when the LW lost 12,000 combat aircraft...

12,000 out of 35,600 doesn't look too bad...

BUT :wink: if it's 12,000 combat aircraft in a year when maybe only 16-18,000 combat aircraft were produced...things don't look so rosy THEN... :)

RichTO90
Member
Posts: 4238
Joined: 22 Dec 2003 18:03

Re: German vs. Allied war-making potential

Post by RichTO90 » 21 Feb 2010 02:18

phylo_roadking wrote:
It doesn't really matter, since the losses quoted are only combat losses in aerial combat...
Well, our friend is claiming that the LW enjoyed air superiority in the East....in a year when the LW lost 12,000 combat aircraft...

12,000 out of 35,600 doesn't look too bad...

BUT :wink: if it's 12,000 combat aircraft in a year when maybe only 16-18,000 combat aircraft were produced...things don't look so rosy THEN... :)
Um, actually, according to the Speer Schnellbericht it was 35,542 combat aircraft completed. Which is pretty irrelevent. The US completed 74,135 (USAAF and USN procurement) in 1944. And had 13,289 losses (USAAF losses). And had 41,961 on hand at the end of the year... :roll:

User avatar
phylo_roadking
Member
Posts: 17488
Joined: 30 Apr 2006 23:31
Location: Belfast

Re: German vs. Allied war-making potential

Post by phylo_roadking » 21 Feb 2010 02:35

Rich, thanks for the detail to clear that up. Nice to see it coming from a good, detailed source rather than some of the tertiary sources used to produce it a few posts up :wink:

Art
Forum Staff
Posts: 6924
Joined: 04 Jun 2004 19:49
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: German vs. Allied war-making potential

Post by Art » 22 Feb 2010 13:14

Guaporense wrote: In 1944 Germany lost only 2406 combat aircraft in the eastern front, while performing nearly 380,000 sorties, a loss rate of only 0,7%(1). While the Russians lost about 26 thousand (2).
The correct number is 24,8 thousands combat planes and it includes all types of losses even a plane broken by some unlucky flying school cadet somehwere in Tashkent. Battle losses accoriding to Krivosheev were 9,7 thousands planes. An alternative source gives 9 456 planes lost in combat in 1944: 7 861 by the VVS RKKA, 554 by the Longe-Range Bomber Air Force, 131 by the Air Defence Air Force, and 910 by the Navy. Soviet Air Foces in numbers.

RichTO90
Member
Posts: 4238
Joined: 22 Dec 2003 18:03

Re: German vs. Allied war-making potential

Post by RichTO90 » 22 Feb 2010 13:20

Art wrote:The correct number is 24,8 thousands combat planes and it includes all types of losses even a plane broken by some unlucky flying school cadet somehwere in Tashkent. Battle losses accoriding to Krivosheev were 9,7 thousands planes. An alternative source gives 9 456 planes lost in combat in 1944: 7 861 by the VVS RKKA, 554 by the Longe-Range Bomber Air Force, 131 by the Air Defence Air Force, and 910 by the Navy.
It's always a pleasure to get more hard information on the Soviet experience. :D
Drat! Now I have to try to find my Cyrillic alphabet cheat sheet.

Cheers!
Richard Anderson
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall: the 1st Assault Brigade Royal Engineers on D-Day
Stackpole Books, 2009.

Art
Forum Staff
Posts: 6924
Joined: 04 Jun 2004 19:49
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: German vs. Allied war-making potential

Post by Art » 22 Feb 2010 15:24

If you are interested, it so happened that the detailed information on VVS RKKA losses in 1944 was published by Alekseenko quite a time ago with reference to TsAMO f.35 etc etc. According to this source the VVS (without Long-Range bombers and airborne forces) lost:
Fighters: 3 571 as battle losses (lost to enemy fighters and flaks, didn't return from combat missions, destroyed on airfields), 2 088 in crushes and accidents, 4 452 were written off due to wear, Total 10 111.
Bombers - 738 battle losses, 521 in accidents, 541 to wear, total 1 806
Ground-attack planes (IL-2, IL-10) - 3 727 battle losses, 1 141 in accidents, 2 594 to wear, total 7 462
Total 8 036 planes lost to enemy, somewhat more than in the previos source.
The table itself in Russian (with breakdown by types and models) can be found here:
http://malchish.org/lib/history/parabellum/pril_1.htm
I guess similar information on the other years must be available, but I didn't see it published.

User avatar
Guaporense
Banned
Posts: 1866
Joined: 07 Oct 2009 02:35
Location: USA

Re: German vs. Allied war-making potential

Post by Guaporense » 22 Feb 2010 16:01

Art wrote:
Guaporense wrote: In 1944 Germany lost only 2406 combat aircraft in the eastern front, while performing nearly 380,000 sorties, a loss rate of only 0,7%(1). While the Russians lost about 26 thousand (2).
The correct number is 24,8 thousands combat planes and it includes all types of losses even a plane broken by some unlucky flying school cadet somehwere in Tashkent. Battle losses accoriding to Krivosheev were 9,7 thousands planes. An alternative source gives 9 456 planes lost in combat in 1944: 7 861 by the VVS RKKA, 554 by the Longe-Range Bomber Air Force, 131 by the Air Defence Air Force, and 910 by the Navy. Soviet Air Foces in numbers.
The 25 thousand planes lost is total losses due to combat and accidents, or it includes damaged?

The German statistic of 12,000 combat planes lost includes losses to combat and accidents. So you must compare with that.

In the first half of 1944, the Germans lost 4,080 combat aircraft to combat and 2,129 to accidents. I don't have the breakdon for the second half, but we know that they lost 12,000 for the whole year.
"In tactics, as in strategy, superiority in numbers is the most common element of victory." - Carl von Clausewitz

User avatar
Guaporense
Banned
Posts: 1866
Joined: 07 Oct 2009 02:35
Location: USA

Re: German vs. Allied war-making potential

Post by Guaporense » 22 Feb 2010 16:04

RichTO90 wrote:
phylo_roadking wrote:
It doesn't really matter, since the losses quoted are only combat losses in aerial combat...
Well, our friend is claiming that the LW enjoyed air superiority in the East....in a year when the LW lost 12,000 combat aircraft...

12,000 out of 35,600 doesn't look too bad...

BUT :wink: if it's 12,000 combat aircraft in a year when maybe only 16-18,000 combat aircraft were produced...things don't look so rosy THEN... :)
Um, actually, according to the Speer Schnellbericht it was 35,542 combat aircraft completed. Which is pretty irrelevent. The US completed 74,135 (USAAF and USN procurement) in 1944. And had 13,289 losses (USAAF losses). And had 41,961 on hand at the end of the year... :roll:
The USSR lost a very large fraction of combat aircraft produced in 1944, much more than Germany. About 25 thousand out of 33 thousand produced. In 1943, Ger lost over 8 thousand combat aircraft, out of a production of 19 thousand, a larger proportion of losses than in 1944. The US sure lost less combat aircraft in proportion to production, but that's expected.

So, it is not pretty irrelevant. The fact that Ger lost only about 25% of fighters produced in 1944, the year were Germany lost the control of her airspace, means that they failed to utilize their production. That was because of lack of pilots and lack of fuel to fly the aircraft.

And the allied bomber raids in 1944 had about 1-2 thousand combat aircraft. While the Germans only managed to attack these raids with small groups of fighters is strange. Considering that Ger made nearly 30,000 figters in 1944, if they managed to use all this production, they should have much larger number of operational fighters.
Last edited by Guaporense on 22 Feb 2010 16:17, edited 1 time in total.
"In tactics, as in strategy, superiority in numbers is the most common element of victory." - Carl von Clausewitz

RichTO90
Member
Posts: 4238
Joined: 22 Dec 2003 18:03

Re: German vs. Allied war-making potential

Post by RichTO90 » 22 Feb 2010 16:15

Guaporense wrote:The German statistic of 12,000 combat planes lost includes losses to combat and accidents. So you must compare with that.
Here we go again... :roll:

NO IT DOES NOT!

The figures I gave were collected from the Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen der Fliegende Verbände and only include Abgang durch Feindeinwerkung - losses to enemy action. Losses to accidents are under Abgang ohne Feindeinwerkung AND ARE NOT INCLUDED IN THE FIGURES I GAVE.

BTW, to the moderators and other sensible posters reading this I apologize for the shouting, but it seems that nothing else might get through... :roll:

Surreal... :roll:

User avatar
Guaporense
Banned
Posts: 1866
Joined: 07 Oct 2009 02:35
Location: USA

Re: German vs. Allied war-making potential

Post by Guaporense » 22 Feb 2010 16:19

So, considering the 4,080 combat losses figure in the first half of 1944 would imply a combat losses figure of 8,551 for the second half of 1944. That doesn't make sense, since losses in the second half of 1944 weren't significantly higher than in the first half.

I am sorry, but my source doesn't agree with yours, and also, it makes perfect match if you consider your source to be of all types of losses, since we would have 6,000 losses for each half of the year. So, I suspect that it consists of all types of losses.

Also, in 1943, the Germans lost 4,830 combat aircraft to combat. In 1942, only 2,547. Source: Strategy for Defeat: The Luftwaffe 1933-1945. In 1942 and 1943, combat losses consisted of about 3/5 of the total losses. I suspect that losses in 1944 wouldn't be nearly 3 times higher than in 1943.
Last edited by Guaporense on 22 Feb 2010 16:40, edited 5 times in total.
"In tactics, as in strategy, superiority in numbers is the most common element of victory." - Carl von Clausewitz

RichTO90
Member
Posts: 4238
Joined: 22 Dec 2003 18:03

Re: German vs. Allied war-making potential

Post by RichTO90 » 22 Feb 2010 16:21

Guaporense wrote:they failed to utilize their production. That was because of lack of pilots and lack of fuel to fly the aircraft.

And the allied bomber raids in 1944 had about 1-2 thousand combat aircraft. While the Germans only managed to attack these raids with small groups of fighters is strange. Considering that Ger made nearly 30,000 figters in 1944, if they managed to use all this production, they should have much larger number of operational fighters.
Forgive me all those who have greater patience than I do...

WTF DO YOU IMAGINE WAS THE CAUSE OF THAT FAILURE?

Did they fail to plant enough pilot trees?

Yes, they really, really shoulda oughta had a much larger number... :roll:

Surreal... :roll:

User avatar
Guaporense
Banned
Posts: 1866
Joined: 07 Oct 2009 02:35
Location: USA

Re: German vs. Allied war-making potential

Post by Guaporense » 22 Feb 2010 16:42

Rich, your US 13,289 number includes only combat losses or includes all types of losses?
"In tactics, as in strategy, superiority in numbers is the most common element of victory." - Carl von Clausewitz

Return to “Life in the Third Reich & Weimar Republic”