51.Armée Soviet in Winter Storm

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marthus
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51.Armée Soviet in Winter Storm

Post by marthus » 17 Mar 2010 12:45

Hello
Could somebody give me the precise composition of 51.Armée Soviet to the starting of the Winter-Storm operation the 12 December 1942?
in its Eremko book (“Stalingrad”) indicates that 51.Armée was made up of:
- 4th Corps of cavalry, 61e and 81e Div.Cav + the remainder
of a brigade of tank (65e or 85e? ) between the Don and Kotelnikovo
- 91e, 126e, 302e Divisions and 76e sector strengthened in front of Kotelnikovo and in north east of this cheap
-87e Division gathered in the Zety sector
-235e brigade of tanks (lance flames), 234e tank regiment and 20th anti-tank artillery brigade concentrated in the sector of Vypasnoï
and that it would have received in reinforcement to face the German offensive of:
13th Mechanized Corps (1600 infantrymen and 28 tanks?)
- 4th Mechanized Corps (5600 men and 70 tanks including 32 T34 according to Dana V Sadarananda “Book Beyond Stalingrad”)

I would like to know what a were the real forces of the Russians as men and materials of these various units of 51.Armée Soivétiques!

thank you for your answers to come!

Dann Falk
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Re: 51.Armée Soviet in Winter Storm

Post by Dann Falk » 17 Mar 2010 17:38

Data from BSSA

As of Dec 1, 1942 the 51 Army had:

Rifle, Airborne & Cavalry Units
91, 126, 300, 302, 315 сд,
4 кк (61, 81 кд),
76 УР

Artillery Units
1105 пап, 149, 491, 492, 1246 иптап, 125 минп, 3/141 минп, 47, 80 гв. мп, 2 зенад

Armored & Mechanized Units
85, 254 тбр

Engineer Units
205 оиб, 275 осб, 742 оминсб, 6 пмб

You can find BSSA data at this web site: http://tashv.nm.ru/

Art
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Re: 51.Armée Soviet in Winter Storm

Post by Art » 17 Mar 2010 18:26

marthus wrote: - 4th Corps of cavalry, 61e and 81e Div.Cav + the remainder
of a brigade of tank (65e or 85e? )
It was the 85th Tank Brigade. In fact the corps didn't operate as one unified formation by 12.12.42. The 81st Cavalry Division which already suffered heavy casualties at Pokhlebin in early December was on the right wing of the army near Don river at Verkhne-Yablochniy - Verkhne Kurmoyarsky together with the 85th Tank Brigade and corps units. The 61st Cavalry Division was on the left wing of the army. This map can be useful to identify positions of the Army's divisions:
http://battle.volgadmin.ru/karta/25.htm

marthus
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Re: 51.Armée Soviet in Winter Storm

Post by marthus » 18 Mar 2010 09:34

DaN and Art

thank you with you two for your answers
for the Russian site, unfortunately I do not understand this languages!
I am French and I have already difficulties to correctly express me in English, then the Russian!
the map is interesting but overloaded and thus difficult has to read but it is better than anything!

if you have other information on the real forces of the units Russian (as material men and average) thank you to communicate them to me and in particular on the committed forces comtre the 6.PZD with Verhne-Kumsky of the from December 13th to 19th?
on this subject, Dana V Sadarananda writes in are book “Beyond Stalingrad”
the decisive factor in keeping the 57 PZK from making more progress than it did and perhaps from reaching Stalingrad , was the battle around Verkhne-Kumsky .Here, relatively modest Russian forces delayed the 6th and 23rd Panzer Divisions for five days ( December 13-18 ) , allowing time for more powerful Soviet forces to be concentrated on the Myshkova to stop the German drive
in this same book she writes however that the 4th Mechanized Body understood only 4600 men and 70 tanks including 32 T34!
does the forces of the 4th Mechanized Corps seem to me a little weak to have to block during 4 days 6th and 23e PZD?
is what quelq' one knows the forces exact of the Russians in this sector?

thank you for your answers to come!

Paul_Atreides
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Re: 51.Armée Soviet in Winter Storm

Post by Paul_Atreides » 18 Mar 2010 21:19

marthus wrote:in this same book she writes however that the 4th Mechanized Body understood only 4600 men and 70 tanks including 32 T34!
On 1st December in 4th Mech Corps were 11 703 men, 79 T-34 and 77 Т-70, 97 BA-64. On 15th December, when 4th MC counterattacked 6th pz.div., in it were 107 operational tanks.

On 17th December 4th MC was strengthened with 85th tank brigade (17 tanks) and 20th AT brigade (6 or 7 guns and some AT rifles).

During 15-19 December losses of 4th MC were next: 52 knocked out and damaged tanks, 994 KIA, 3497 WIA, 1075 MIA.

On 20th December in 4th MC were 6833 men, 31 T-34 and 19 T-70.
There is no waste, there are reserves (Slogan of German Army in World Wars)

marthus
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Re: 51.Armée Soviet in Winter Storm

Post by marthus » 18 Mar 2010 22:14

super.!! , thank you very much Paul
would have also information on the 13th Mechanized Body which of sound with dimensions blocked the 23e Panzer Division?

Alain

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Re: 51.Armée Soviet in Winter Storm

Post by Art » 19 Mar 2010 14:35

According to A.M.Samsonov ("Battle of Stalingrad") by the start of the German offensive the 51st Army had 34 thousands men, 77 tanks, 419 guns and mortars. It is not completely clear from the text whether the strength is given for all units or only the combat ones.
In addition to what Paul wrote about the 4th Mechanized Corps according to the units history by the same Samsonov the corps had 107 tanks (not clear total and operational), 130 mortars, 105 guns, 38 heavy and 82 light machineguns on circa 12 December 1942. It must be added that in the battle of Verkhne-Kumskiy it was additionally reinforced with 235th Tank Brigade (flamethrower tanks), 234th Tank Regiment, 20th Tank-Destroyer Brigade and 1378th Rifle Regiment of the 87th Rifle Division. The total number of tanks in this group as of 14 December is given as 173 in the second volume of the four-volume official Russian history of the war. According to the same source losses of the corps with attached units in the period 14-19 December 1942 were about 5 000 men (close to the Isaev's numbers quoted above), 150 tanks, 120 guns and mortars.
Regarding the 13th Tank or 13th Mechanized Corps only a part of the unit (namely two brigades - 17th and 62nd Mechanized) actually participated in defensive battles. According to the unit's history by Tolubko these brigades had 49 operational tanks and 60-70% of the authorized infantry.
Just a note: it's hard to get a consistent picture of the numbers of tanks available from the secondary sources, since they give them for various dates and usually don't explain whether the total number is meant of operational tanks only. Quite naturally in the period of intensive operations the latter number tends to change very rapidly.

marthus
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Re: 51.Armée Soviet in Winter Storm

Post by marthus » 22 Mar 2010 12:59

Art, thank you for this information!

much historian indicates that the 51.Armée Russian one had 77 Tanks with the starting of “Winter-Storm” .Does Eremko in its book “Stalingrad” indicate that German had 500 Tanks for this operation is five times more than what had 51.Armée either the 100 Tanks for this Army?
we know that this army had:
-235e brigade of Tanks launches flames
-234e regiment of tanks (39 Tanks)
-85e brigade of Tanks (very weak)
but is what there was of another units of tanks?
Does Eremko, as indicate in its book as before the release of the German offensive, as he would have telephoned Stalin (he does not indicate the date? ) to ask him reinforcements in order to face this offensive and that Stalin would have promised it to him sends of 3 regiments of Tanks (either approximately 60 Tanks? )
Is what 51.Armée had received these Tanks before the release of W-T?
which were these regiments?

Paul and Art, thank you for your assistance!

Art
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Re: 51.Armée Soviet in Winter Storm

Post by Art » 27 Mar 2010 13:11

The number 77 most probably pertains to operational tanks only.
On circa 20 December three tank regiments (52, 128, 223) arrived to the Stalingrad Front together with the 2nd Guards Army. I don't know whether these were the units Yeremenko mentions in his memoirs.

marthus
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Re: 51.Armée Soviet in Winter Storm

Post by marthus » 27 Mar 2010 21:03

thank you ART for your information very useful for me
is what you know if there exists a translation of the English Russian of the combat carried out by the Russians during Winter-Storm?
is what A.M SAMSONOV on has battle of Stalingrad was translated of the Russian into English?

Alain

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Re: 51.Armée Soviet in Winter Storm

Post by Art » 29 Mar 2010 14:45

As far as I know, it wasn't.

marthus
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Re: 51.Armée Soviet in Winter Storm

Post by marthus » 31 Mar 2010 08:27

in his book on the 6th PZD the Rauss general speaks about a battle of “Cannae” the 6 December 42, which would have opposed its division
with the elements of two divisions of cavalry “Turkestan” (see chart Ci below)
is what somebody would have more information on this subject, because to my knowledge in this sector was there only the 4th Corps of Russian Cavalry (61e and 81e division of cavalry)?

Image

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Re: 51.Armée Soviet in Winter Storm

Post by Art » 01 Apr 2010 16:20

Pokhlebin was attacked on 3 December by the 81st Cavalry Division and 85th Tank Brigade. As I wrote earlier the second division of the corps (61st Cavalry) operated independently in another area. On 4th December the Germans counterattacked with the main forces of the tank regiment/6th Panzer-division and retook Pokhlebin inflicting heavy losses to cavalry units. A bit of more info:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... el+cavalry
Raus wrote his account based mostly on his own memory, as a result he has numerous mistakes concerning precise dates, units number and other details.

marthus
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Re: 51.Armée Soviet in Winter Storm

Post by marthus » 01 Apr 2010 19:29

hello Art

I thank you for this information
indeed I think that Raus wrote of memory and that it makes sometimes some errors as I could note it in particular with the engagements in Prussia Orientale in January 45

still thank you for your implication in this post on the Russian 51e armed in the Winter-Storm operation

I would undoubtedly need still as of your information about the 2nd Army of the guard!

Alain

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Re: 51.Armée Soviet in Winter Storm

Post by Art » 10 Apr 2010 13:12

Well, the 2nd Guards Army was formed in October 1942 based on HQ of the 1st Reserve Army in the region of Tambov. initially the army included:
1st Guards Rifle Corps (24th, 33rd Guards, 98th Rifle Division)
13th Guards Rifle Corps (3rd, 49th Guards, 387th Rifle Division)
a newly formed 2nd Guards Mechanized Corps (converted from the 22nd Guards Rifle Division)
All division were withdrawn from the front for rest and refitting.
By late November, when the army started transfer to the Stalingrad area it numbered:
1st Guards Rifle Corps - 35 764 men
13th Guards Rifle Corps - 37 664
2nd Guards MechCorps - 17 136
Total 90 564 men.
Source
This figure certainly doesn't include non-combat units directly subordinated to the Army's HQ.
Also after arriving to the Stalingrad Front the Army received the following units:
300th Rifle Division - was to be included in the 5th Shock Army but when the crisis broke out was re-subordinated and deployed along the Myshkova river.
7th Tank Corps (later 3rd Guards Tank Corps) - a fresh unit, from 13th December participated in reduction of German bridgehead at confluence of Don and Chir River in the sector of the 5th Shock Army. On 23 December the corps concentrated behind Myshkova having 20 KV, 41 T-34, 31 T-70 in operation condition, that is from the unit's history. Was committed to action on 25 December with the start of Soviet counteroffensive.
6th Mechanized Corps (later 5th Guards Mechanized) - a completely fresh unit which arrived from reserve. By late December had 13 340 men, 117 T-34, 78 T-78, 108 armored cars, 205 guns and mortars, 138 heavy machineguns, 308 light machineguns. That is from VIZh (Journal of Military History), 1, 1973
Also there were three separate tank regiments in the army, which arrived in late December, see above.
According to already mentioned official history upon concentration the army had with all the units 122 thousands men, 2 335 guns and mortars (incl 50-mm mortars), 84 multiple rocket launchers, 469 tanks. It's not clear again whether all units are counted or combat only.

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