The Troubled History of RAF Kaldadarnes

[Chromeboomerang]

Reykjavic & Trondheim are both at near the same latitude, 64-ish. The British had a runway "up & running" near Narvik, which is much further north, ( 400 miles roughly http://www.mapcrow.info/cgi-bin/cities_ ... 416730%2CN), I don't think you quite understand the nature of war, particularly the urgency factor. Need a runway, you get one fast. Just how its done.

http://www.mapsofworld.com/lat_long/nor ... -long.html


The runway at Skånland consisted of 700 metres of steel-meshed “sommerfelt” tracking laid on bare earth.



http://www.s377311931.websitehome.co.uk ... ge5380.htm

Sommerfeld Tracking, named after German expatriate engineer, Kurt Joachim Sommerfeld, then living in England, was a lightweight wire mesh type of prefabricated airfield surface. it was a wire netting stiffened laterally by steel rods. This gave it load-carrying capacity while staying flexible enough to be rolled up.
.

Notice it says laid on "bare earth", it doesn't say, specially or elaborately "prepared" earth.

[phylo_roadking]

Yet the British aircraft landed at Kaldadarnes, ( as has been previously pointed out to you), Aug 1940.

The exact types of British aircraft landing at Kaldadarnes that early has been detailed in this thread already - AND their various landing/takeoff weights compared to German transport types in other incarnations of your idea. Fairey Battles, BP Defiants and Hawker Hurricanes are all very considerably lighter than said German aircraft...thus -

On 26 July 1940 the squadron left Gatwick on the first stage of its flight to Kaldadarnes, Iceland, a hastily prepared landing ground on the bank of the river Ölfusá, about 40 km southeast of Reykjavik
Five hours and twenty minutes later they all landed safely at Kaldadarnes,

http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/1 ... dendum.htm

13 September 1940 when F/Lt. H.C.G. Wilcox, RCAF took off from Kaldadarnes to transport a army colonel to Akureyri on Iceland’s north coast

...can I recommend you check the types of aircraft used on these occasions?

A Lockheed Hudson of No. 269 Squadron RAF prepares to take off on a patrol over the North Atalantic from Kaldadarnes, Iceland. And runway is dirt.
..
http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/searc ... Iceland%22

Er....no; check out the squadron diary for No. 269 squadron which is available online and has been used extensively in this thread before you arrived; the first of the tarmac runways had been completed by the time the first Hudsons arrived. That aircraft is on the apron, which remained unpaved. Have you actually read the rest of this thread detailing the history of RAF Kaldarnes?

Reykjavic & Trondheim are both at near the same latitude, 64-ish. The British had a runway "up & running" near Narvik, which is much further north, ( 400 miles roughly http://www.mapcrow.info/cgi-bin/cities_ ... 416730%2CN), I don't think you quite understand the nature of war, particularly the urgency factor. Need a runway, you get one fast. Just how its done.

http://www.mapsofworld.com/lat_long/nor ... -long.html

The runway at Skånland consisted of 700 metres of steel-meshed “sommerfelt” tracking laid on bare earth

Really? So you're saying Skanland was operational, are you?...

http://www.s377311931.websitehome.co.uk ... ge5380.htm

In three formations they set course from Skånland west of Narvik. Each formation was lead by a navigating Swordfish. The runway at Skånland consisted of 700 metres of steel-meshed “sommerfelt” tracking laid on bare earth. Cross landed first. On the roll-out the wheels on his Hurricane started to sink into the too soft earth and the plane tipped over bending the propeller blades. There followed two successful landings, but then Flight Lieutenant Stewart tipped over and ended up inverted. Stewart was unhurt but his Hurricane was damaged beyond repair on site. After two more landings Cross ordered Flight Lieutenant P.G “Jamie" Jameson to continue with the remaining eight Hurricanes onwards to Bardufoss, which had solid earth runway. At Bardufoss all planes landed safely although one of them overshot the short runway and ran a few yards into the scrub.

Early next morning Cross led three Hurricanes off from Skånland in the Squadron’s first scramble. Actually only two got airborne. Pilot Officer Bunker tipped over on the take off due to the soft earth. The patrol did not make contact with German planes. Cross now decided to evacuate Skånland and after flying a patrol, all planes landed at Bardufoss.

Skanland was an abject failure. The couple of aircraft that actually landed there with out cracking up didn't even return there after they flew off the next morning! You COULD for instance have looked around the rest of that site...

Then, on 9th May, orders were received to embark the Squadron in the carrier HMS Glorious. During the next two days their Hurricanes were hoisted aboard the carrier. On the 12th, Glorious sailed only to be recalled. No airfields in northern Norway were ready to receive the fighters yet. No 46 Squadron's ground crews and advance party embarked in the troop carrier Batory in Glasgow on 13th May, and on the following day Glorious sailed again. HMS Furious. carrying No 263 (F) Squadron and its Gloster Gladiators, also set course for Norway. On the 21st, the carriers entered their fly-off position outside Lofoten. Furious then flew off her Gladiators, which landed at Bardufoss. but Skånland was still not ready for the Hurricanes.

Are we clear? A month exactly after the invasion of Norway began - neither Bardofuss NOR Skanland were yet ready for modern aircraft...even Gladiators! (If you read T.K. Derry's official history of the campaign, even the existing airfield at Bardofuss was still too soft and boggy for Hurricanes or Gladiators...and that was AFTER the British had to use mules to help lear the snow off the runway there!))

...and another two and a half weeks later, after Skanland was REPORTED ready - it most definitely was not as No. 40 Sqn found out that day - at a cost of two aircraft being badly damaged by the ground conditions and a third written-off by the ground conditions out of seven aircraft that landed there...

Notice it says laid on "bare earth", it doesn't say, specially or elaborately "prepared" earth.

It doesn't need to; Bardofuss had been a NoAAS airfield flying light Tiger Moth observation aircraft and Fokkers C-VDs since 1938. As of 9th April 1940, 6 Fokker C-VDs of the Haalogaland Flying Unit, Norwegian 6th Division were stationed there. But as your own reference shows, it wasn't ready to land modern aircraft until the 21st of May - six and a half weeks later...

[phylo_roadking]

By the way -

Trucks come on board cargo ships, please try & make a note this time, last time I mentioned it, you apparently forgot it. Author Oluf Reed Olsen mentioned in his book 2 Eggs on my Plate that the Germans prior to the invasion of Norway sent in cargo ships with war accoutrements hidden in the bowels of the ships.

Exactly why are you repeating that here...when ELSEWHERE you've ALREADY been told that it's incorrect?

http://nuav.rforum.biz/t552-german-carg ... before-inv

[phylo_roadking]

Meanwhile...here's one for the AHF Comedy Files....

land based planes at Iceland using a stadium as runway, 1928-31.

In 1928 a new company established (John Alexander). It worked for 1931 but the Depression and other setbacks had to fall. Over the next two years using Dutch meteorological officers stadium, which had been predetermined and shaped smooth considerably.

http://translate.google.co.uk/translate ... n%26sa%3DN

As usual, Chromeboomerang posts up scattergun material without actually checking up what it means...

How can we forget that priceless moment when he claimed that an aircraft flying on Iceland in 1919-21 giving joyrides all over the island PROVED that Ju52 and Stukas could operate on Iceland - THIS aircraft...



...Cecil Faber's Avro 504!

Or that moment when he likewise claimed that the aircraft flying the island's first regular air route PROVED that German Ju52s and Stukas could operate on Iceland - THIS aircraft...



...having forgotten to check and find out that it was a seaplane!

Well, tonight brings us ANOTHER classic comedy moment....

Over the next two years using Dutch meteorological officers stadium...

You see - he didn't bother checking WHAT aircraft the Royal Netherlands Meterological Institute operated in the Reykjavik area in 1931, flying out of a sports ground...



Two ancient Fokker D-VIIs! The above is one of them, pictured at Reykjavik in 1931, flying in LVA colours!

And I can't help noticing the two planks on the ground that its wheels had to rest on each night to stop even IT sinking into the boggy ground!

[Chromeboomerang]

Um, no Phylo, read it again. Snow cleared off with local help, Hurries & Gladiators did fly off it. Runway abandoned due to german advance, not unviability.

th the German invasion of Norway, he was sent to organise the airfield at Bardufoss for the Gladiators of No 263 Sqn and later the Hurricanes of 46 Sqn. In order to make the landing ground safe. it was necessary to clear the snow from the runways. With limited resources, he was able to coerce the local population to undertake the task. With the situation in Norway becoming untenable the RAF personnel were ordered to evacuate and burn their aircraft. However, not wishing to lose valuable aircraft, he and 'Bing' Cross (OC, No 46 Sqn), decided to attempt the evacuation of the Hurricanes and Gladiators by landing them aboard HMS Glorious rather than destroying and abandoning them in Norway. The actual landing of the squadrons aboard the carrier was a complete success, but unfortunately it was sunk on it's way to Britain.
. http://www.rafweb.org/Biographies/AtcherleyR.htm

Remember your embarrasing mistake in claiming Gliders would carry Trucks to Iceland? Remember your "really" embarrasing claim that the battle would take place in Iceland's interior? In the great glacier?? Then there was the claim Akeyuri was iced over & therefore impossible to land at, yet the British did exactly that? There were many more of these funnies, but it's gotten boring. You haven't won a point yet, its not a game.


Now we've established Sommerfelt worked in colder jagged terrain & climes of Norway, what can you offer us, ( other than your unsubstantiated opinion), that temporary fields wouldn't work in Iceland? Germans did use wood runways in Norway, hence Iceland should be a non-issue..

[phylo_roadking]

Um, no Phylo, read it again. Snow cleared off with local help, Hurries & Gladiators did fly off it. Runway abandoned due to german advance, not unviability.

th the German invasion of Norway, he was sent to organise the airfield at Bardufoss for the Gladiators of No 263 Sqn and later the Hurricanes of 46 Sqn. In order to make the landing ground safe. it was necessary to clear the snow from the runways. With limited resources, he was able to coerce the local population to undertake the task. With the situation in Norway becoming untenable the RAF personnel were ordered to evacuate and burn their aircraft. However, not wishing to lose valuable aircraft, he and 'Bing' Cross (OC, No 46 Sqn), decided to attempt the evacuation of the Hurricanes and Gladiators by landing them aboard HMS Glorious rather than destroying and abandoning them in Norway. The actual landing of the squadrons aboard the carrier was a complete success, but unfortunately it was sunk on it's way to Britain.
. http://www.rafweb.org/Biographies/AtcherleyR.htm

No - that material is about BARDOFUSS, not SKANLAND

Remember your embarrasing mistake in claiming Gliders would carry Trucks to Iceland? Remember your "really" embarrasing claim that the battle would take place in Iceland's interior? In the great glacier?? Then there was the claim Akeyuri was iced over & therefore impossible to land at, yet the British did exactly that? There were many more of these funnies, but it's gotten boring. You haven't won a point yet, its not a game.

Let's see...

Remember your embarrasing mistake in claiming Gliders would carry Trucks to Iceland?

Really? I seem to remember I was asking YOU how on earth trucks and earthmoving equipment was supposed to get to Iceland, seeing that the RN had control of the North Sea....

Remember your "really" embarrasing claim that the battle would take place in Iceland's interior? In the great glacier??

Really? Are you QUITE sure *I* claimed that? Or did I perhaps actually direct you to the HISTORICAL stationing of a British battalion at Lake Myvatn as the British were initially worried immediately after Norway that the Germans could land troops in the island's interior by flying boat?

Then there was the claim Akeyuri was iced over & therefore impossible to land at, yet the British did exactly that?

Really? I seem to remember telling you that although the British outpost was AT Akeyuri... the gravel runway airfield serving the town was actually some kilometers AWAY, at Melgerdi!

Now we've established Sommerfelt worked in colder jagged terrain & climes of Norway, what can you offer us, ( other than your unsubstantiated opinion), that temporary fields wouldn't work in Iceland? Germans did use wood runways in Norway, hence Iceland should be a non-issue.

Actually - your own source proves that Sommerfeld matting DIDN'T work when used at Skanland...as far as I can see it wasn't used at Bardofuss, the existing NoAAS runway was useable once cleared of snow...

Germans did use wood runways in Norway,...

...but I seem to remember they had to bring the wood with them....

[Chromeboomerang]

He 111 ran off Zowaya Zemla using wood planks!!! 15 hours of work
"that flight proved the feasibility of landing on the island" !!!

with tools, planks and beams aboard, to drop at the landing place for constructing a wooden path by the crew. After about 15 hours of hard work the crew succeeded to taxy out from the soft place and take off for Banak, where they landed in the early hours of the next day.
However that flight proved the feasibility of landing on the island and to set up there an automatic weather station in the coming months



http://arcticwar.pomorsu.ru/sea/arct.../selinger.html

http://books.google.com/books?id=EIgbHU ... 11&f=false


Very good Phylo, bring wood to the runway site, then lay it down. Very good.


No, the runway at Skanland did in fact land & send aircraft, it did actually work. It wasn't perfect, so they transferred to a better one. & it was built very fast, & in the snow! much worse conditions than one would have at Iceland, ( not 2 years of waiting for concrete to dry as you repeatedely posit, no airforce actaully waited that long to run airplanes from places they moved into during the war). Temporary fields 1st, grass, gravel, then paved ones later on.

[phylo_roadking]

No, the runway at Skanland did in fact land & send aircraft, it did actually work. It wasn't perfect, so they transferred to a better one.

They CRASHED 3 of the seven aircraft they attenpted to land on it...then GAVE UP and flew the rest of No.46 Sqn on to Bardofuss.

not 2 years of waiting for concrete to dry as you repeatedely posit

And exactly WHERE did I say they used concrete for runways, or that it would take two years to dry?

He 111 ran off Zowaya Zemla using wood planks!!!

http://books.google.com/books?id=EIgbHU ... 11&f=false

Very good Phylo, bring wood to the runway site, then lay it down. Very good

That's a very interesting reference....

What part of "The plan failed...." do you not grasp???

That reference doesn't actually mention wood blocks on Novaya Zemlya...and the work was actually done by a specially converted Ar-232, not an He 111!

At least read your OWN source material...

[Chromeboomerang]

flew the rest of No.46 Sqn on to Bardofuss. from Skanland


3 out of 7, means 4 landed successfully. What part of these successfull landings can't you comprehend?


Nope, it say wood & Heinkel 111 "wooden path"

with tools, planks and beams aboard, to drop at the landing place for constructing a wooden path by the crew. After about 15 hours of hard work the crew succeeded to taxy out from the soft place and take off for Banak, where they landed in the early hours of the next day.
However that flight proved the feasibility of landing on the island and to set up there an automatic weather station in the coming months



http://arcticwar.pomorsu.ru/sea/arct.../selinger.html







And exactly WHERE did I say they used concrete for runways, or that it would take two years to dry?

eVery time you mentioned how long it took for Kaldadarnes to be complete

[phylo_roadking]

Nope, it say wood & Heinkel 111
with tools, planks and beams aboard, to drop at the landing place for constructing a wooden path by the crew. After about 15 hours of hard work the crew succeeded to taxy out from the soft place and take off for Banak, where they landed in the early hours of the next day.
However that flight proved the feasibility of landing on the island and to set up there an automatic weather station in the coming months

http://arcticwar.pomorsu.ru/sea/arct.../selinger.html

Strange that, the link doesn't work....

But even taking it at face value - look at your OTHER reference - where it makes it quite clear that the He 111 wasn't suitable, they had to specially adapt an Ar-232 instead.

flew the rest of No.46 Sqn on to Bardofuss.

from Skanland

No - from OVER Skanland!

In three formations they set course from Skånland west of Narvik. Each formation was lead by a navigating Swordfish. The runway at Skånland consisted of 700 metres of steel-meshed “sommerfelt” tracking laid on bare earth. Cross landed first. On the roll-out the wheels on his Hurricane started to sink into the too soft earth and the plane tipped over bending the propeller blades. There followed two successful landings, but then Flight Lieutenant Stewart tipped over and ended up inverted. Stewart was unhurt but his Hurricane was damaged beyond repair on site. After two more landings Cross ordered Flight Lieutenant P.G “Jamie" Jameson to continue with the remaining eight Hurricanes onwards to Bardufoss, which had solid earth runway.

I.E. more than half No. 46 Sqn didn't even attempt to land at Skanland.

[Chromeboomerang]

No, "from" Skanland.

In three formations they set course from Skånland west of Narvik.


Funny how easy it was to find a link that works.
http://forums-de.ubi.com/showthread.php ... WK2-Forums


So we have several working/usable fields in Iceland circa 1940, Reykjavic airport, the staduim, Melgerdi, Kaldadarnes, Sandskeid, plus wooden runways in Norway at the same timeframe, ( actually used by frontline Luftwaffe A/C),and Skanland, ( which if anything shows the Germans were better at it than the British, or had better material & technique).

And to top it off, Heinkel 111 operating with wood at Nowaya Zemla. So much for Phylo's theories on temporary runways.

[phylo_roadking]

No, "from" Skanland.

In three formations they set course from Skånland west of Narvik

Ahem - ever think that might be a misprint? So you're honestly saying they set off FROM Skanland to fly TO Skanland???

Perhaps once again you should have checked out what the REST of your referenced website says before standing on a spelling mistake??? THIS is what the page IMMEDIATELY BEFORE says, about where they departed FROM....

http://www.s377311931.websitehome.co.uk ... age509.htm

Then, on 9th May, orders were received to embark the Squadron in the carrier HMS Glorious. During the next two days their Hurricanes were hoisted aboard the carrier. On the 12th, Glorious sailed only to be recalled. No airfields in northern Norway were ready to receive the fighters yet. No 46 Squadron's ground crews and advance party embarked in the troop carrier Batory in Glasgow on 13th May, and on the following day Glorious sailed again. HMS Furious. carrying No 263 (F) Squadron and its Gloster Gladiators, also set course for Norway. On the 21st, the carriers entered their fly-off position outside Lofoten. Furious then flew off her Gladiators, which landed at Bardufoss. but Skånland was still not ready for the Hurricanes. The carriers withdrew from Norway, and Glorious arrived Scapa Flow on the 23rd, refueled on the 24th and sailed again the same afternoon. On the 26th, the landing strip at Skånland was finally reported ready.

At 0830 on 26th of May Squadron Leader Kenneth Cross took off from Glorious in his Hurricane P2632. This was the first Hurricane to take off from a carrier. Since Glorious did 30 knots the take off was not a problem for Cross nor the rest of the Squadron that all departed Glorious that evening.

The WHOLE account of events on the 26th thus reads....

Then, on 9th May, orders were received to embark the Squadron in the carrier HMS Glorious. During the next two days their Hurricanes were hoisted aboard the carrier. On the 12th, Glorious sailed only to be recalled. No airfields in northern Norway were ready to receive the fighters yet. No 46 Squadron's ground crews and advance party embarked in the troop carrier Batory in Glasgow on 13th May, and on the following day Glorious sailed again. HMS Furious. carrying No 263 (F) Squadron and its Gloster Gladiators, also set course for Norway. On the 21st, the carriers entered their fly-off position outside Lofoten. Furious then flew off her Gladiators, which landed at Bardufoss. but Skånland was still not ready for the Hurricanes. The carriers withdrew from Norway, and Glorious arrived Scapa Flow on the 23rd, refueled on the 24th and sailed again the same afternoon. On the 26th, the landing strip at Skånland was finally reported ready.

At 0830 on 26th of May Squadron Leader Kenneth Cross took off from Glorious in his Hurricane P2632. This was the first Hurricane to take off from a carrier. Since Glorious did 30 knots the take off was not a problem for Cross nor the rest of the Squadron that all departed Glorious that evening.

In three formations they set course from (should be "for) Skånland west of Narvik. Each formation was lead by a navigating Swordfish. The runway at Skånland consisted of 700 metres of steel-meshed “sommerfelt” tracking laid on bare earth. Cross landed first. On the roll-out the wheels on his Hurricane started to sink into the too soft earth and the plane tipped over bending the propeller blades. There followed two successful landings, but then Flight Lieutenant Stewart tipped over and ended up inverted. Stewart was unhurt but his Hurricane was damaged beyond repair on site. After two more landings Cross ordered Flight Lieutenant P.G “Jamie" Jameson to continue with the remaining eight Hurricanes onwards to Bardufoss, which had solid earth runway. At Bardufoss all planes landed safely although one of them overshot the short runway and ran a few yards into the scrub.

[phylo_roadking]

O dear, o dear - now you're caught partially quoting/exerpting sources again!

Funny how easy it was to find a link that works.
http://forums-de.ubi.com/showthread.php ... WK2-Forums

So we have several working/usable fields in Iceland circa 1940, Reykjavic airport, the staduim, Melgerdi, Kaldadarnes, Sandskeid, plus wooden runways in Norway at the same timeframe, ( actually used by frontline Luftwaffe A/C),and Skanland, ( which if anything shows the Germans were better at it than the British, or had better material & technique).

And to top it off, Heinkel 111 operating with wood at Nowaya Zemla. So much for Phylo's theories on temporary runways.

Perhaps we should take a look at a much BIGGER chunk of that source than you've chosen to post, eh?

A short time after the first "Kröte" station was set up on Spitsbergen in July 1942, the weather pilot Rudolf Schütze took off from Banak to ecploit a suitable position for another "Kröte" station on or near Nowaja Zemlya and attempted to land on 20 July on Meshdusharsskij Island At the end of the landing run, the wheels of the Heinkel 111 sank in the soft ground and the aircraft became blocked. The crew informed by radio the base at Banak of the mishap, and another aircraft took off, with tools, planks and beams aboard, to drop at the landing place for constructing a wooden path by the crew. After about 15 hours of hard work the crew succeeded to taxy out from the soft place and take off for Banak, where they landed in the early hours of the next day.

However that flight proved the feasibility of landing on the island and to set up there an automatic weather station in the coming months, when weather and the darkness of the polar night restricted the routine weather flights.

Meanwhile weather reconnaissance on the route to Nowaja Zemlya was flown about twice a week, the farthest position of turning back changing from the region of Belusha Buba to the coast of the northern island near Inostrantseva Bay.

On 29 September 1942 Rudolf Schütze took off from Banak, with an automatic weather station "Kröte" on board, to land on Meshdusharsskij and set up there the station, but due to bad weather and soft ground a landing was not possible and the aircraft returned to Banak.

Two weeks later the attempt was repeated, the aircraft landed at the island on the now frozen ground, with an escorting aircraft Heinkel 111 watching the scene.

While assembling the weather station, a Soviet MBR-2 flying boat from Belusha Buba arrived and tried to attack, but after several attempts it was driven off by the escorting aircraft.

As the action was now revealed, it was decided to abandon the mission, the main components of the weather station were loaded in the plane, and after a successful take-off both aircraft headed for their home base.

A Soviet search party landed few hours later, but could discover no more than battery cases and antenna masts, the taxying tracks of the aircraft confirmed its successful departure.

No more attempts were made in 1942 to set up automatic weather stations "Kröte" by aircraft in that area, even few days after that failure, another station was set up on Bear Island by the same crew, not before a labour party to clean a landing strip was landing by parachute.

Not so successful after all, eh? In fact - not UNTIL the ground actually froze solid!

[Chromeboomerang]

Actually no, successful take-off, both aircraft. The success/non success of the radio base in another topic.


and after a successful take-off both aircraft headed for their home base.

[phylo_roadking]

Actually no, successful take-off, both aircraft. The success/non success of the radio base in another topic.

No; you're choosing to ignore the fact that that account details THREE sets of flights to that transmitter location...

I.E. There weren't TWO sets of flights that attempted to land at that location - THERE WERE THREE!

1/ The initial surveying flight and landing - when the He 111 got bogged down, and a second aircraft and engineers had to be sent;

2/ The first placing flight - that couldn't land;

3/ The second placing flight, the one that DID land....but because the ground was frozen, not because of the temporary plank runway! It had let them down on flight number two.

Three sets of flights; and on the second - the fact that the temporary plank runway was there did NOT halp them to land successfully; nor did it on the third....the frozen ground was what allowed them to land and take off - NOT the plank runway!